[williegunn2]

historical anecdotes from pre industrial revolution mostly, when the uplands were treed, when the rivers weren't dammed etc. but also look at the much larger Russia runs which are in areas not subject to such deforestation.

What was the population of the U.K. before the industrial revolution? O.K. I'll simplify the question, was the population bigger or smaller?

 

[GeeBee]

I think there will be plenty 'salmon Scientists' concerned about the potential affects of mass afforestation in the headwaters. While riparian planting would undoubtedly help provide shading to counteract rising temps. Mass tree planting, could end up dramatically reducing the volume of water actually ending up in these headwaters. Therefore, totally negating any benefit provided by the riparian trees. The daily volume of water required by a forrest must be absolutely massive.
Tree planting in upland areas especially on peat moorland needs to be very strictly controlled and regulated.

Trees release water through its leaves.

all the water they suck up, they release. Its called transpiration.

I absolutely agree that tree planting needs to be strictly controlled and regulated - which the programme made a point of.

the planting of non native conifers would be no help at all.

the problem we have here is that many folks either don't understand basic science or they are just opposed to it on principle.

its no coincidence that the programme featured national and local scientists, fishery owners and managers, and ghillies.

 

[GeeBee]

Basic geography is it? Many Scottish uplands have been heavily modified by glaciers, the valley floors are wide and flat, with the mountain sides very steep. Where are you going to plant your trees? On the valley floors or on the steep valley sides?

I will be interested in some pictures of forests growing on rock.

yep, because there are no forests in the mountains of norway, france, switzerland, Bavaria, BC etc etc are there ? 🤣

 

[GeeBee]

What was the population of the U.K. before the industrial revolution? O.K. I'll simplify the question, was the population bigger or smaller?

how is the population of London relevant to the Cairngorms, Sutherland etc ?

answer. Its not.

and due to the Highland clearances, there are less people on the uplands than 300 years ago, correct ?

 

[williegunn2]

how is the population of London relevant to the Cairngorms, Sutherland etc ?

answer. Its not.

and due to the Highland clearances, there are less people on the uplands than 300 years ago, correct ?

Incorrect, the population of the Highlands is about 600 000 these days, and according to the 1841 census the population was 167 000.

What is your definition of uplands? I'm fairly certain not many crofted on mountain tops.

 

[Horsbrugh]

Trees release water through its leaves.

all the water they suck up, they release. Its called transpiration.

I absolutely agree that tree planting needs to be strictly controlled and regulated - which the programme made a point of.

the planting of non native conifers would be no help at all.

the problem we have here is that many folks either don't understand basic science or they are just opposed to it on principle.

its no coincidence that the programme featured national and local scientists, fishery owners and managers, and ghillies.
[/QUOTE

I wonder if you actually understand basic science? Because if you do, you should know that transpiration is when trees release water vapour through their leaves back into the atmosphere. That will not help or counter the loss of water that has been taken up by the trees that would have previously ended up in the river. Yes, it will end up falling as rain somewhere but unlikely back into the river that was deprived of the water in the first place.
I have actually discussed this film with a fishery scientist who is of the same opinion as myself on this subject.

 

[Loxie]

yep, because there are no forests in the mountains of norway, france, switzerland, Bavaria, BC etc etc are there ? 🤣

Well none north of the tree line.

 

[GeeBee]

You've never seen mist in the woods ? That comes from transpiration. Moisture also drops from leaves.

hence woods are moister.

 

[GeeBee]

Incorrect, the population of the Highlands is about 600 000 these days, and according to the 1841 census the population was 167 000.

What is your definition of uplands? I'm fairly certain not many crofted on mountain tops.

But are there less people working and living on the open land after the highland clearances or not ?

the growth of highland towns and villages has very little effect on the reforestation of open lands, which is the point here.

this is not natural, and has zero to do with population growth - where are the trees ?

 

[Loxie]

But are there less people working and living on the open land after the highland clearances or not ?

the growth of highland towns and villages has very little effect on the reforestation of open lands, which is the point here.

this is not natural, and has zero to do with population growth - where are the trees ?

View attachment 88891

It depends where it is. There are miles of natural rivers that look like that. There are wome hugely productive and important salmon rivers above the treeline. The great bulk of deforestation was started thousands of years ago and that scene may well be unchanged for several hundred years, so what is natural? Are humans counted as part of nature or do we sit in a weird cocoon somewhere else? If forests are essential to salmon then can you explain why not only are the most productive rivers in the UK all in areas that largely look like your picture, but also are all at their maximum capacity for juveniles?

I think the film is a desperate oversimplification in pursuit of an ideological agenda.

 

[goosander]

Been saying that for years. A large flood plain where i fish has been dammed by beavers and is now full of water most times. Still waiting on a beaver expert to explain how a water full flood plain can prevent flooding.

Bob

Always caused by either a flash flood or heavy rain falling on already saturated ground. ie, the forests stop flooding idea is mince.

 

[goosander]

I absolutely agree that tree planting needs to be strictly controlled and regulated - which the programme made a point of.

the planting of non native conifers would be no help at all.

the problem we have here is that many folks either don't understand basic science or they are just opposed to it on principle.

its no coincidence that the programme featured national and local scientists, fishery owners and managers, and ghillies.

The program was only interested in rewilding and not one bit about salmon. As far as planting loads of Trees goes. The rivers that i know are up and down in a day at times because of the drainage caused by the large-scale planting of trees.
It is cleaner rivers we need. Not more trees unless the leaves like willow fall into the water for food for the stuff the young ones need.
Bob.

 

[williegunn2]

But are there less people working and living on the open land after the highland clearances or not ?

the growth of highland towns and villages has very little effect on the reforestation of open lands, which is the point here.

this is not natural, and has zero to do with population growth - where are the trees ?

These are the trees you are looking for, said Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[Horsbrugh]

You've never seen mist in the woods ? That comes from transpiration. Moisture also drops from leaves.

hence woods are moister.

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about and especially after periods of heavy rain. However what I am concerned about is during very low summer levels, when any rainfall is usually very light and infrequent, In these conditions, every drop of rainwater is precious in the upper reaches. It's then that any rain taken up by a forest will certainly reduce the water that would have helped raise the levels in a drought stricken burn.
Native trees in the headwaters, great, I'm all for it. Total reforestation (if there ever was a forest there in the first place), not necessary for salmon, so let's not pretend it is. But if your end game is to turn the uplands of Scotland into some great national park populated with lynx, bears and beavers, then yes, absolutely essential.