End of the Line

7934 Views 161 Replies 42 Participants Last post by midgydug, 2 d ago

Rennie

Discussion Starter · 17 d ago

Nope, not the Wilbury's, but Salmon. Interesting thoughts by Attenborough and some positive words from Fergal Sharkey, but 20 yrs?, they haven't got that long!. My own belief is we won't be fishing for migratory fish next year with rod and line. So low are returning numbers. Migratory fish are being netted to extinction on the high Sea's it's that simples. Yes there are other problems -water quality being a big one- but these are a part of a cumulative effect rather than a sole cause. I feel the line is being drawn in the sand as we speak. So get your rod hours in now because I believe we won't have the opportunity next year. The cessation of rod n line Salmon angling will lessen a lot of the problems that this and highly likely a new Government just dosen't want to face or heaven forbid indeed act on.
Thinking about it, the Salmons only real hope is that returning numbers get so low it's financially unsound to target them through netting, however that won't protect them from being harvested on a by catch basis.
Stop the high seas's netting, get those trawlers into dock right now and returning numbers will rise overnight, I guarantee it!. All the other issues pale a long way behind this one.
Ironic don't you all think, the Salmon farms will all be sat on a nice little earner on the back of this!.
Pedro.

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101 - 120 of 162 Posts

Jockiescott

· #101 · 13 d ago

Rennie said:
In the first instance, who is going to know what species of fish are landed in Russia or China ? or at which ports, who is going to accuse them of illegal practice ? and do you think for one little instance they would pay any fine or even listen?. Any catch is fully processed out at sea and that processed catch transferred to other ships for landing where ever. We are all assuming the fish go for public consumption, they may well not be. Could be they're a by catch and used for animal feed or god knows what. If they can be harvested cheaply enough ( which is what these great big factory ships are about ) then god knows what their eventual fate turns into!.
When these ships are being legally banned from places because of the damage they do to fish stocks, when they absolutely have to move they will only move onto the next place where they can take the maximum catch for the minimum effort, no matter what that might be. It's been proven they will take anything and everything until it's no more!. Bear in mind these are communist regime's, they could well be taking these fish to simply deny us!, who knows.
Pedro.

I hadn't even considered China.

I had a look online and discovered that China does most of Russia's fish processing.

Despite sanctions against Russian imports in America, the Russian fishing industry is booming. The Russian's are catching the fish, the Chinese are processing them and they are being imported into the US as being Chinese.

I also read that Russian and Chinese ships do most of the "transhipping" on the high seas. Moving cargo from ship to ship at sea. God only knows what's being transferred.

midgydug

· #102 · 13 d ago

You can garauntee that right now with the global situation, Russian trawlers will be getting watched more than they have been for the last 20 years. You can track fishing boats on your phone now so the powers that be will have more sophisticated stuff than a mere mobile. They have every right to fish in their waters , northern norway etc but they will not be in the british sector and definately not in Icelandic waters.

westie4566

· #103 · 13 d ago

There could be another factor at play. I often wonder if genetic introgression from farmed escapees is producing less viable 'wild' fish?

Just one of the many thoughts that wander through my brain from time to time.

I can't get my head round the high seas fishing thing though. I do believe that 2020 was purely coincidental - but the fact that boats were tied up at the time just added fuel to the fire. For those that believe that 2020 runs were caused by the lack of trawlers, how would you explain the excellent runs in 2010 when trawlers weren't tied up?

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Jockiescott

· #104 · 13 d ago

midgydug said:
You can garauntee that right now with the global situation, Russian trawlers will be getting watched more than they have been for the last 20 years. You can track fishing boats on your phone now so the powers that be will have more sophisticated stuff than a mere mobile. They have every right to fish in their waters , northern norway etc but they will not be in the british sector and definately not in Icelandic waters.

Yes I've been reading that ships turning off their AIS broadcaster is a major red flag. However, there are parts of the oceans where ships "go dark" through no other reason than poor signals. Ships can be dark for weeks in some of these places.

There are other electronic signals emitted from these dark ships which can help in identifying them.

Jockiescott

· #105 · 13 d ago

Interesting...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/02/at-least-6-percent-global-fishing-likely-as-ships-turn-off-tracking-devices-study

On the world map shown in the article above, there were a hell of a lot of AIS broadcasters switched off around the west coast of Ireland.

midgydug

· #106 · 13 d ago

Yes they can turn their tracker off on AIS , but they will still be visible to other boats and radar.
I do agree that 2020 was just coincidence. And lets be honest it was hardly a record breaking year. The spring was one of the warmest we had had for a long time and everyon
e was saying that it was because most of the planes were grounded.
Just more theories to baffle us.
I'm maybe wrong but I can't see any trawlers hoovering up scottish and irish salmon.

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SalmoNewf

· #107 · 13 d ago

“There could be another factor at play. I often wonder if genetic introgression from farmed escapees is producing less viable 'wild' fish?”

There is lots of evidence of exactly that. Here’s one study:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Selection against individuals from genetic introgression of escaped farmed salmon in a natural population of Atlantic salmon

The viability of wild Atlantic salmon populations is threatened by genetic introgression from escaped farmed salmon. Farmed Atlantic salmon are genetically improved for important commercial traits and a life in captivity but are poorly adapted to the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

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Andrew B

· #108 · 13 d ago

Jockiescott said:
I'm sure I read that Delphi and Burrishule are struggling the same as everywhere else despite having hatcheries in operation for decades.

Oh I’ve no doubt about that as it’s hard to know what percentage the hatchery fish were?
You know the annoying thing though to me? Much of the problems are out of our control and so the stuff that we could do better re farming pollution, sewage treatment and the state of the spawning gravels on streams is something that has also gotten worse along with the decline in migratory fish

Jockiescott

· #109 · 13 d ago

Andrew B said:
Oh I’ve no doubt about that as it’s hard to know what percentage the hatchery fish were?
You know the annoying thing though to me? Much of the problems are out of our control and so the stuff that we could do better re farming pollution, sewage treatment and the state of the spawning gravels on streams is something that has also gotten worse along with the decline in migratory fish

Can't really argue with that at all unfortunately. 🙁

goosander

· #110 · 12 d ago

Just a thought but could the part answer to the shortage of fish not be down to the massive increase i am told of the mackerel stocks.
When one sees the increase in seals, dolphins and other predators in the sea and the goosanders and cormorants in the rivers and the lack of fly life for the parr it is surprising that there are any fish left.
Bob.

Jockiescott

· #111 · 12 d ago

goosander said:
Just a thought but could the part answer to the shortage of fish not be down to the massive increase i am told of the mackerel stocks.
When one sees the increase in seals, dolphins and other predators in the sea and the goosanders and cormorants in the rivers and the lack of fly life for the parr it is surprising that there are any fish left.
Bob.

Just last month, the Marine Conservation Society added mackerel to it's amber list as mackerel numbers have "steadily declined" over the years through overfishing.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2023-04-07/skippers-speak-out-as-declining-mackerel-added-to-amber-list

It is this overfishing of mackerel that I personally feel is the biggest contributor to the loss of salmon.

My own personal belief is that salmon cannot make it back if they've never got where they're going to begin with.

It has been proven that post smolts can, and do, get hauled onto a boat among a shoal of mackerel. Purely as by catch.

If the skipper on a boat finds a shoal of mackerel, they can basically follow the shoal until they've either reached their quota or else fished that particular shoal out. Any other species that just happen to be in the same area of ocean, really don't stand a chance.

Targeting a shoal of mackerel is not about scouring the sea bed. Mackerel fishing is about having nets at specific depths to target specific shoals. Again, whatever other species of are at the depth, they're getting hauled too.

The specific targeting of adult salmon on the high seas, honestly, I don't really see it as an issue. I believe it can happen and probably does at times from rogue skippers out to make a quick buck. That's just based on society in general. Greed over good is always at the fore for many.

I just can't see how smolts in an area of ocean where mackerel are being over fished can avoid becoming casualties.

Of all the areas I've overthought in wondering why our salmon have disappeared, this is the one thing that seems to make the most sense to me, personally. If they haven't got there, they're definitely not coming back.

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Grassy_Knollington

· #112 · 12 d ago

The world is a complex system isn’t it?

Mackerel - 2017

Heading for a Collapse - 2013

Jockiescott

· #113 · 12 d ago

That's the effect allowing vessels like Margaris and Annelies Ilena, and the rest, to plunder your waters for a few years.

They're not long in bringing a population of mackerel, and many other species, down.

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Petekd

· #114 · 12 d ago

midgydug said:
Yes they can turn their tracker off on AIS , but they will still be visible to other boats and radar.
I do agree that 2020 was just coincidence. And lets be honest it was hardly a record breaking year. The spring was one of the warmest we had had for a long time and everyon
e was saying that it was because most of the planes were grounded.
Just more theories to baffle us.
I'm maybe wrong but I can't see any trawlers hoovering up scottish and irish salmon.

The biggest difference I saw in 2020 in Ireland was that we actually had decent water levels all summer. There were no prolonged waits for the fish in the estuary.

Reactions: 1

Jockiescott

· #115 · 12 d ago

Grassy_Knollington said:
The world is a complex system isn’t it?

Mackerel - 2017

Heading for a Collapse - 2013

My mind went down another wee rabbit hole there are I was cutting grass. 🤦‍♂️

I have no reason to believe that mackerel wouldn't eat smolts. So, what if the mackerel are targeting smolts when the boats are targeting the mackerel?

A sort of a double whammy for the smolts perhaps?

I'm nearly sure that the Salsea project did stomach samples of mackerel they landed. I can't for the life of me remember if they had smolts in them or not. I must have a look later.

Right, this isn't getting grass cut. 😂

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Grassy_Knollington

· #116 · 12 d ago

Jockiescott said:
That's the effect allowing vessels like Margaris and Annelies Ilena, and the rest, to plunder your waters for a few years.

They're not long in bringing a population of mackerel, and many other species, down.

I hate the concept of those big boats, but I think they are justthe most efficient way of catching a quota.

The real problem seems to be years of setting increased or stable quotas in the face of contrary evidence.

The fact that the stock is spread overdifferent populations & fishing rules are decided by 9 ‘coastal states’ makes agreement difficult. Nobody wants to take a hit, especially when some populations (North Sea) are becoming relatively more abundant in particular areas (Norway).

Jockiescott

· #117 · 12 d ago

Just doing some reading over lunch.

I simply typed 'Salsea Mackerel Smolts' into Google. It was all a bit grim. 🙁

Some claim there are so many mackerel that they've depleted the plankton resource so are resorting to cannibalism of their own young, as well as smolts, in order to survive. If there's no feeding for mackerel there certainly won't be any for smolts.

Others claim that there is a massive overlap of mackerel populations to smolts at sea and smolts are being lifted along with mackerel by boats. Apparently surface trawling for mackerel is one of favoured methods catching mackerel and smolts cannot avoid being caught.

Another issue identified by Salsea was the numbers of smolts they were catching at sea that were infested with sea lice. The poor little buggers were being eaten alive basically.

Well I can't say that any of that has brightened my day. 🙁

Ratman

· #118 · 12 d ago

I've been going to Anglesey for a number of years and the lack of mackerel is very noticeable these days compared to what it was 20 yrs ago. I was told recently that a mackerel processing factory was swabbed for DNA and salmon DNA was found. I would say its fairly inevitable that both smolts and salmon will be scooped up by the massive mackerel boats

neilt

· #119 · 12 d ago

Grassy_Knollington said:
I hate the concept of those big boats, but I think they are just the most efficient way of catching a quota.

Interesting one.
I agree it's currently the most efficient way of catching them - but not if they're breaking the law?
This is where money invested and proof gets difficult.
If fishery protection can prove smolt or salmon loss then surely this is an illegal way of fishing?
The money invested in these trawlers v fishery protection?? - but there could be a legal angle.
Less efficient if they're fined or have to change their fishing methods.

iainmortimer

· #120 · 12 d ago

Grassy_Knollington said:
I hate the concept of those big boats, but I think they are justthe most efficient way of catching a quota.

The real problem seems to be years of setting increased or stable quotas in the face of contrary evidence.

The fact that the stock is spread overdifferent populations & fishing rules are decided by 9 ‘coastal states’ makes agreement difficult. Nobody wants to take a hit, especially when some populations (North Sea) are becoming relatively more abundant in particular areas (Norway).

You are, I am sure, correct but that is the problem. In the past inefficient fishing sustained stocks because only a percentage of a given shoal would be netted; 60-70% I seem to recall reading somewhere. That left s vastly depleted shoal that wasn’t worth targetting and so it recovered and the cycle repeated.

Nowadays, as good as 100% of a shoal is caught and so none are left to breed. Over time that only heads one way.

To make matters worse, the same principle exists for all such ‘harvesting’. What I find REALLY scary is that to gather oils for cosmetics, fish pellets and even coarse fishing bait krill shoals are also being wiped out in one fishing by modern techniques. Take out the bottom of the food chain and we are really in trouble and yet that is exactly what we are doing and for cosmetics!!

I fear the issue with smolt return is but a strong indicator of a far reaching impact and we aren’t going to wake up to that until its to late given the lack of real action in a joined up way on far more obvious issues like climate impact.

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