So, what you're saying is that salmon are relatively easy to catch at sea if you really wanted to?When at sea Atlantic salmon are primarily a pelagic species and spend most of their time in the top 20 feet of water so are very unlikely to be caught in trawl nets. Back in the early ‘70’s I was a summer student at what was then, the Fisheries Research Board of Canada’s science branch here in Newfoundland. I worked in the Anadromous section and spent part of two summers aboard a research vessel tagging salmon on the high seas, starting in the Davis Straits between Canada and Greenland and moving south to the north east coast of Newfoundland. We used both baited lines suspended 10 to 15 feet below the surface and drift nets, eight feet in depth and suspended from the surface. We caught and tagged lots of salmon.
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that trawlers generally aren’t a problem, driftnetters are, particularly when they are operating outside any legal framework or negotiated agreements such as are currently in place with the Greenland fishermen. As a further point re trawlers, satellite tagging projects have shown that most grilse from Newfoundland rivers go to the Grand Banks for their one year at sea feeding but they don’t show up in catches by the numerous trawlers at work on those banks.
A final point, I’m certainly not attributing the decline in North American stocks to commercial fisheries, just noting that it’s one more nail in the coffin, along with fish farms, climate change affecting prey species and river survival, and so on. Fortunately we do have a lot of healthy rivers despite fluctuations but as time goes by they will tend to be the more remote and difficult ($$$$) ones to access.
End of the Line
Nope, not the Wilbury's, but Salmon. Interesting thoughts by Attenborough and some positive words from Fergal Sharkey, but 20 yrs?, they haven't got that long!. My own belief is we won't be fishing for migratory fish next year with rod and line. So low are returning numbers. Migratory fish are being netted to extinction on the high Sea's it's that simples. Yes there are other problems -water quality being a big one- but these are a part of a cumulative effect rather than a sole cause. I feel the line is being drawn in the sand as we speak. So get your rod hours in now because I believe we won't have the opportunity next year. The cessation of rod n line Salmon angling will lessen a lot of the problems that this and highly likely a new Government just dosen't want to face or heaven forbid indeed act on.
Thinking about it, the Salmons only real hope is that returning numbers get so low it's financially unsound to target them through netting, however that won't protect them from being harvested on a by catch basis.
Stop the high seas's netting, get those trawlers into dock right now and returning numbers will rise overnight, I guarantee it!. All the other issues pale a long way behind this one.
Ironic don't you all think, the Salmon farms will all be sat on a nice little earner on the back of this!.
Pedro.
Thinking about it, the Salmons only real hope is that returning numbers get so low it's financially unsound to target them through netting, however that won't protect them from being harvested on a by catch basis.
Stop the high seas's netting, get those trawlers into dock right now and returning numbers will rise overnight, I guarantee it!. All the other issues pale a long way behind this one.
Ironic don't you all think, the Salmon farms will all be sat on a nice little earner on the back of this!.
Pedro.
81 - 100 of 162 Posts
So, what you're saying is that salmon are relatively easy to catch at sea if you really wanted to?
No you definitely have missed the point. Im not and never have said they are not fewer fish now than previously. My point is that there isnt just one stock of salmon that can be treated homogeneously. This isnt opinion but fact.No I haven't missed any point at all.
Even if there are fish returning to Alta, Tweed or Exe, if there's very few returning to the rest of England, Ireland and Scotland as a whole then there must be fewer fish overall. It's basic common sense.
Saying that there are fish in one tiny tip of the UK mainland so everyone else in the world, including scientists and anglers, are idiots for believing there are fewer fish overall, that really takes an unbelievable level of belief in ones own opinions! 🙄
Well if you say so it must be right. Silly me!No you definitely have missed the point. Im not and never have said they are not fewer fish now than previously. My point is that there isnt just one stock of salmon that can be treated homogeneously. This isnt opinion but fact.
Silly to resort to childish ad hominems.Well if you say so it must be right. Silly me!
Any response to Hoddom's eloquently put post or is he simply an idiot too? 🤔Silly to resort to childish ad hominems.
I was thinking if you want to catch salmon, you would need to target them. The trawlers I was on trawled the sea bed.When at sea Atlantic salmon are primarily a pelagic species and spend most of their time in the top 20 feet of water so are very unlikely to be caught in trawl nets. Back in the early ‘70’s I was a summer student at what was then, the Fisheries Research Board of Canada’s science branch here in Newfoundland. I worked in the Anadromous section and spent part of two summers aboard a research vessel tagging salmon on the high seas, starting in the Davis Straits between Canada and Greenland and moving south to the north east coast of Newfoundland. We used both baited lines suspended 10 to 15 feet below the surface and drift nets, eight feet in depth and suspended from the surface. We caught and tagged lots of salmon.
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that trawlers generally aren’t a problem, driftnetters are, particularly when they are operating outside any legal framework or negotiated agreements such as are currently in place with the Greenland fishermen. As a further point re trawlers, satellite tagging projects have shown that most grilse from Newfoundland rivers go to the Grand Banks for their one year at sea feeding but they don’t show up in catches by the numerous trawlers at work on those banks.
A final point, I’m certainly not attributing the decline in North American stocks to commercial fisheries, just noting that it’s one more nail in the coffin, along with fish farms, climate change affecting prey species and river survival, and so on. Fortunately we do have a lot of healthy rivers despite fluctuations but as time goes by they will tend to be the more remote and difficult ($$$$) ones to access.
Where would mackerel swim in the water column? I realise it would be difficult to catch salmon if you were targeting deep water species.I was thinking if you want to catch salmon, you would need to target them. The trawlers I was on trawled the sea bed.
I just can't believe that the Russian fleet, with a highly sought after species that could generate income are just allowed to pass by when money can be got for them. If they're really not too difficult to catch either.
Not sure where they would be, but we never caught much of them either, so I’m guessing not on the bottom. The trawlers I worked on tried to catch the fish that could fetch the highest price, mackerel, Coley and other similar species were not as valuable.Where would mackerel swim in the water column? I realise it would be difficult to catch salmon if you were targeting deep water species.
I just can't believe that the Russian fleet, with a highly sought after species that could generate income are just allowed to pass by when money can be got for them. If they're really not too difficult to catch either.
To say salmon are not generically under threat cause they run different rivers is a fundamentally basic error in the understanding of ecosystems
Ecosystems function as systems (it’s in the name) all salmon are part of the same ecosystem. They have variations, of course but are conjoined. Hence they share threats. Some more than others but decline will track from the most challenging marginal outwards to initially more favourable geographies as threats migrate. For example numbers have declined in Spain and France with warming. As heating accelerates so the effects move north. Simple to drawn a mental map combining numbers of salmon decline and location. . Cornwall, Devon, south wales, north wales. Cumbria, Solent, Tweed, Dee. That’s just one of many intertwined factors affecting salmon many of which are part of the species shared ecosystem. Just a couple of examples. Abstraction and pollution - moving north with increased access and population . Road run off increasing with traffic. FEBS came into rivers closer to The first over commercially fished waters. That factor migrated with commercial fishing and its increased efficiency. Seals will move into rivers if food supply reduces allowing populations to grow beyond the normal sustainable numbers . Many will die but Some will in time move toward better feeding (slowly) - their population there will grow and…. Seals start turning up in more rivers.
Whilst some northern rivers may be doing well now. That doesn’t mean they will continue to. Without huge, substantive and enduring change addressing the systemic issue, the trajectory of decline is inevitable.
This process is demonstrated by all species that have become extinct or are clinging on. The last populations to go are in the least human effected environments (or zoos - which pointlessly and synthetically maintain a gene pool). But go they do.
Humanities impact on the planet is now so pervasive that we are effecting the whole planet. without mind boggling change mass extinctions are inevitable. Indeed, they are happening now at the fastest rate since the great extinction event that finished off the dinosaurs.
Image the disruptions on their way to the north. Pick one. Population. We know mass migration is happening now due to climate change. It’s just beginning. Around 1 billion will be displaced in the next 75 years - they will be unable to grow crops and have water security. They are heading north, to cooler prosperous lands.
With current trajectories, it’s not if but when.
I fully understand your point and agree about human impact. I am not suggesting that there aren't generic threats: anthropogenic global warming is a threat to everything. What I am saying is that to talk about the stock of salmon as if its one thing is wrong. For example removing dams in Maine will do nothing for salmon spawning on the Kola Peninsula. Take a look at the Capercaillie. Down to its last few birds in Scotland but doing fine in most of its range. Reducing hunting pressure in Russia will not save the Caper in Scotland.
I had missed his post so that you for that. He is quite clearly not an idiot and makes an interesting point, without resorting to passive aggressive posturing.Any response to Hoddom's eloquently put post or is he simply an idiot too? 🤔
Loxie, I've absolutely nothing personal against you. Clearly this is something we're never going to agree on so I think it's best left at that.I had missed his post so that you for that. He is quite clearly not an idiot and makes an interesting point, without resorting to passive aggressive posturing.
We're looking at things from two completely different perspectives.
I think myself and most people on the forum are entirely focused on numbers returning to UK and Irish rivers. Saying that you can't say stocks are in decline because there's fish in Russia just doesn't really matter to the vast majority who'll never fish there. When we say stocks are in decline, we automatically mean the vast majority of UK and Irish rivers.
Long may those rivers thriving with fish continue to do so.
Loxie, I've absolutely nothing personal against you. Clearly this is something we're never going to agree on so I think it's best left at that.
We're looking at things from two completely different perspectives.
I think myself and most people on the forum are entirely focused on numbers returning to UK and Irish rivers. Saying that you can't say stocks are in decline because there's fish in Russia just doesn't really matter to the vast majority who'll never fish there. When we say stocks are in decline, we automatically mean the vast majority of UK and Irish rivers.
Long may those rivers thriving with fish continue to do so.
Im not saying you cant say stockS are in decline my objection is to saying the salmon stock is in decline. God knows there are nowhere near as many salmon now as there were 30 years ago. Literally no one is disputing that. My issue, or if I am honest one of my issues, is the assumption that there is 1 salmon stock and that it can be managed as one. There isn't and it cant. Of course there are generic problems but there are many more problems that are not and the way to manage salmon populations is by identifying the problems that are affecting each specific population not to look for magic bullets that will save all salmon. Decades of time and millions of pounds have been wasted looking for a one size fits all solution, usually on the high seas, rather than addressing the very real issues so many rivers are facing. The fact that wherever there are wilderness rivers with small human populations there are large salmon populations just illustrate that the many of the rod catch limiting problems are not generic and at least some can be reversed.
Your use of the word treated is too ambiguous to conclude opinion or fact. Depending on what you mean by treated, the notion that a species is anything other than homogenous, is perhaps the most absurd thing I have read on these pages. Obviously there are sub sets and they vary but no, the world does have one stock of salmon. And please do not tell me that I am stupid, lazy or dangerous for thinking so.No you definitely have missed the point. Im not and never have said they are not fewer fish now than previously. My point is that there isnt just one stock of salmon that can be treated homogeneously. This isnt opinion but fact.
Drift netting at sea was the most efficient way of targeting salmon and sea trout. They were hundreds of yards long and floated on the surface and hung down like a curtain waiting for fish to swim along and would push their heads through the mesh trying to get through the obsticle and get caught by the gills.. So yes they are quite easy to catch but it is a highly illegal method now.So, what you're saying is that salmon are relatively easy to catch at sea if you really wanted to?
I understand how drift netting works. I knew a couple of families that drift netted on the Foyle. I even shared a video about drift netting on the Foyle today. Shooting 1000 yards of net at a time and allowing it to drift in the tide.Drift netting at sea was the most efficient way of targeting salmon and sea trout. They were hundreds of yards long and floated on the surface and hung down like a curtain waiting for fish to swim along and would push their heads through the mesh trying to get through the obsticle and get caught by the gills.. So yes they are quite easy to catch but it is a highly illegal method now.
I understand that most modern fishing boats can carry out different types of fishing to target different species. The gear used for cod for example would be very different to that used for mackerel?
If a rogue boat skipper ran across a shoal of salmon on his fish finder, would it be possible to use his, say mackerel gear, to target those salmon?
It's purely hypothetical. I'm not saying it's happening. I'm just wondering if it was at all possible?
Yes without doubt a purse seine net could surround a shoal of salmon but it would pretty pointless on many fronts. They couldn't land or sell them, if they get caught they can face huge fines and licence lost. So in the multi million pound purse fishing industry it could be financial suicide and one that no skipper would risk.
Thanks midgydug. That has answered my question. 👍Yes without doubt a purse seine net could surround a shoal of salmon but it would pretty pointless on many fronts. They couldn't land or sell them, if they get caught they can face huge fines and licence lost. So in the multi million pound purse fishing industry it could be financial suicide and one that no skipper would risk.
You could probably say in this day and age that man will have some kind of system that would catch anything that swims.
Isn't that the truth.You could probably say in this day and age that man will have some kind of system that would catch anything that swims.
In the first instance, who is going to know what species of fish are landed in Russia or China ? or at which ports, who is going to accuse them of illegal practice ? and do you think for one little instance they would pay any fine or even listen?. Any catch is fully processed out at sea and that processed catch transferred to other ships for landing where ever. We are all assuming the fish go for public consumption, they may well not be. Could be they're a by catch and used for animal feed or god knows what. If they can be harvested cheaply enough ( which is what these great big factory ships are about ) then god knows what their eventual fate turns into!.
When these ships are being legally banned from places because of the damage they do to fish stocks, when they absolutely have to move they will only move onto the next place where they can take the maximum catch for the minimum effort, no matter what that might be. It's been proven they will take anything and everything until it's no more!. Bear in mind these are communist regime's, they could well be taking these fish to simply deny us!, who knows.
Pedro.
When these ships are being legally banned from places because of the damage they do to fish stocks, when they absolutely have to move they will only move onto the next place where they can take the maximum catch for the minimum effort, no matter what that might be. It's been proven they will take anything and everything until it's no more!. Bear in mind these are communist regime's, they could well be taking these fish to simply deny us!, who knows.
Pedro.
81 - 100 of 162 Posts
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