The Dreaded Flying C

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elibank

Well-known member
Messages
1,613
Reaction score
457
Location
Derbyshire
I commented yesterday on this thread and mentioned that a friend was fishing the Middle Tweed yesterday.

The score at the end of the day was 7 salmon to the fly and 7 to the Flying C. It just shows that both methods can be deadly if there are fish in the river.
Rutherford?
 

marty31

Well-known member
Messages
1,968
Reaction score
197
Location
work, pub or where big salmon lurk
This is a bit of a 'show your age' moment, but I bet there are a few on here who remember the originals.
I was first shown one in about 1978 by an Irish friend who fished the Moy. He said the French boys were catching loads of fish on them.
To me they looked a bit ridiculous and I could hardly believe they caught fish. They were called the Flying Condos, which obviously soon got re-named, and were only available in natural latex. Multi colours soon followed when they were copied.
Most of us have probably caught fish on them, but would you ban them? The problem, if that's the word, is they can make spinning and therefore catching salmon a bit too easy, without having to put in the groundwork. An instant shortcut. You need to know little about salmon or salmon fishing.
Any learner could be taught to go through the motions in about ten minutes and he is now a 'salmon fisherman'.
With a few fish under the belt this can become the preferred method, even on excellent fly water, to the obvious upset to fly fishermen.
Would you ban it? You probably just have to bite your lip! Bans are a very blunt instrument and rope in the 'good,bad and the ugly'.
Nothing wrong with spinning or worming practised responsibly. Trouble is that's like the Government asking the masses to act responsibly, whether panic buying or social distancing!
I can possibly throw some light on deep hooking.
It's quite rare to see your lure taken while spinning. I once put a flying c upstream into a pot below some white water and wound back at pace, as you do. The lure came into sight, then behind it, at even greater pace. a salmon. The salmon didn't take the flying c, it engulfed it!! It overtook the lure with it's mouth wide open like a basking shark and the flying c just disappeared. Naturally the fish was very deep hooked.
If this happens when you can't see what's happening, and I would suspect it does, then that might explain some deep hooking.
t.c.
yes but what experienced fisherman has never had a deep hooked fish resulting in a bleeder, I say this because they are not all by far on the FC, fly little or big can and does the same deep hooked damage! it just can seem more convenient and fitting your purpose, to say and who knows genuinely think that it does
 

Garnock

Member
Messages
47
Reaction score
61
Caught quite a few salmon on the flying c over the years and had a very occasional deeper hooked fish, but probably not any more than any other methods. Some of the guys on the river who fish with various methods, including the shrimp/prawn swear that that is the only way to never deep hook a fish. Is that what we should all fish with then if that's the safest for the fish ??? Not for me though, I'll stick to the spinner, just wish the fly only guys would give us a break.
 

westie4566

Well-known member
Messages
8,151
Reaction score
998
Location
Aberdeen
Ah well...the old debate rumbles on! Each 'camp' entrenched in their own (generally misguided) beliefs.

I've fished every method known to man in the past 4 and a bit decades. You get deep hooked fish with them all. It's really very simple, some fish will just engulf whatever is put in front of them. Nothing to do with the method just down to the fish.

I've probably lost count of the amount of salmon I've had over the years on the upstream FC and seatrout on a tiny upstream Mepp. Deadly in lower water when the fish don't see you coming..unlike fishing down a wee pool with the flee which will scatter every fish in the pool.

Other than one evening last year, it's been a decade since I spun. Just got to the stage in life where I generally prefer to fish the fly. Nowt to do with anything else than my personal enjoyment. I'm fortunate enough to have landed into 4 figures of fish - nowt to to do with luck, just the passage of time and a reasonable amount of fish every year

I will be very direct and blunt with those who decry any method other than the fly...your not doing the art of the angle any favours. your killing it off. I still remember the joys of trotting a worm down a run, off a 9ft glassfibre fly rod with a wee twist of lead. Didn't matter whether it was for broonies, seatrout or salmon...it was an exciting way to fish.

I've had to kill two fish in the last 8 years. Both deeply hooked and bleeding out form the gills. Not a spinner in sight. Both were springers on the fly. A March fish on a copper tube and an April fish on a size 8 double.

Anyone who claims that any method deep hooks fish any more than any other really is spouting tosh.
 

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
good hunting! how many of the flying c fish were deep hooked and resulted in fatalities ?
Approx ? average ? odds ?deep hooked
10/1 fatalities on the upstream flying C, ?:unsure:
25/1 fly ?:unsure:
25/1, freelined shrimp/prawn, :unsure: nil float fished ?(y)
1/100 Worm, all deep hooked (n)
25/1Toby/devons :unsure:
Rapala with 1 upper treble nil ?(y)

Ok then ? ban all methods but rapala's and float fished prawn and shrimp (y):D

Fish don't have to be deep hooked to die when in play,
1, tongue hooked is fatal
2. treble locking top and bottom jaw,result in drowning,short fight .
3. die in play ,heart attack, exhaustion, extremely rare ?

Multi treble hooked plugs can blind a fish if hooked on the top treble,with the others trailing in the eye region

If your luck is out then you could deep hook all fish on all methods ?or visa versa lucky to never deep hook a fish ? no one can dictate how a fish will take any fly,lure ore bait ?

At the end of the day its all about hooking fish (y)
 
Last edited:

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
Most of us probably started our salmon fishing with worm or spinner. To me it's a right of passage and I have learned so much about watercraft and fish behaviour because of that. The two salmon rivers I fish are both fly only now with no exceptions. That to me is a bloody tragedy.
I started spate worm fishing first for wild brownies @8/9 years , spin using mepps @ 12 yrs for seatrout ,. fly fishing for trout @ 13yrs and caught first seatrout on fly @ 15yrs , I fish both spin and fly , Fly only rivers are tragedies for youngsters as you quoted Cookie-boy
 
Last edited:

Saint Andrews

Well-known member
Messages
2,319
Reaction score
424
Location
Clitheroe, Ribble Valley
Ah well...the old debate rumbles on! Each 'camp' entrenched in their own (generally misguided) beliefs.

I've fished every method known to man in the past 4 and a bit decades. You get deep hooked fish with them all. It's really very simple, some fish will just engulf whatever is put in front of them. Nothing to do with the method just down to the fish.

I've probably lost count of the amount of salmon I've had over the years on the upstream FC and seatrout on a tiny upstream Mepp. Deadly in lower water when the fish don't see you coming..unlike fishing down a wee pool with the flee which will scatter every fish in the pool.

Other than one evening last year, it's been a decade since I spun. Just got to the stage in life where I generally prefer to fish the fly. Nowt to do with anything else than my personal enjoyment. I'm fortunate enough to have landed into 4 figures of fish - nowt to to do with luck, just the passage of time and a reasonable amount of fish every year

I will be very direct and blunt with those who decry any method other than the fly...your not doing the art of the angle any favours. your killing it off. I still remember the joys of trotting a worm down a run, off a 9ft glassfibre fly rod with a wee twist of lead. Didn't matter whether it was for broonies, seatrout or salmon...it was an exciting way to fish.

I've had to kill two fish in the last 8 years. Both deeply hooked and bleeding out form the gills. Not a spinner in sight. Both were springers on the fly. A March fish on a copper tube and an April fish on a size 8 double.

Anyone who claims that any method deep hooks fish any more than any other really is spouting tosh.
Absolutely bob on Westie.. cant argue with a single word of that... well put
 

marty31

Well-known member
Messages
1,968
Reaction score
197
Location
work, pub or where big salmon lurk
Ah well...the old debate rumbles on! Each 'camp' entrenched in their own (generally misguided) beliefs.

I've fished every method known to man in the past 4 and a bit decades. You get deep hooked fish with them all. It's really very simple, some fish will just engulf whatever is put in front of them. Nothing to do with the method just down to the fish.

I've probably lost count of the amount of salmon I've had over the years on the upstream FC and seatrout on a tiny upstream Mepp. Deadly in lower water when the fish don't see you coming..unlike fishing down a wee pool with the flee which will scatter every fish in the pool.

Other than one evening last year, it's been a decade since I spun. Just got to the stage in life where I generally prefer to fish the fly. Nowt to do with anything else than my personal enjoyment. I'm fortunate enough to have landed into 4 figures of fish - nowt to to do with luck, just the passage of time and a reasonable amount of fish every year

I will be very direct and blunt with those who decry any method other than the fly...your not doing the art of the angle any favours. your killing it off. I still remember the joys of trotting a worm down a run, off a 9ft glassfibre fly rod with a wee twist of lead. Didn't matter whether it was for broonies, seatrout or salmon...it was an exciting way to fish.

I've had to kill two fish in the last 8 years. Both deeply hooked and bleeding out form the gills. Not a spinner in sight. Both were springers on the fly. A March fish on a copper tube and an April fish on a size 8 double.

Anyone who claims that any method deep hooks fish any more than any other really is spouting tosh.
couldn't have put that better its 100% correct, this debate goes on and on! and my experiences are exactly the same, minus the worm! never drowned one for salmon, all these published fatality rates, are different and usually in favour of the preferred method of the poster! I have had one deep hooked spinner caught fish that would not recover and died as a result 2 weeks before the keep date in the last 8 years, but 2 on flee, swallowed into the gills with no chance of recover, my only advice is! if you don't want to risk a deep hooked fatality? don't fish
 

SOS

Well-known member
Messages
1,441
Reaction score
324
Although a lot of people think that by fly fishing there is less chance of a fish being deep hooked and going belly up therefor the fish has a better chance of survival,there are other things to consider.
The warmer the water temperature the less oxygen there will be dissolved in the water,so the longer you play a fish,by which ever method the more chance there is of it dying.
Also if you think by using light tackle is more sporting,the longer you play a fish the more lactic acids build up in its body which will kill the fish if not when landed but after it has been released.
So it is not only the method that kills fish but also the water temp and the length of time taken to land the fish.

In 2016 the river Dee killed 37 Salmon and about the same number of Seatrout in a fly only river, so you could presume they were deeped hooked or bleeders.
That same year before ccr my club which has water on 4 rivers which is all methods (not on all beats) killed 24 Salmon and 12 Seatrout .
But what we dont know is how many fish died after swimming away after release
 

sneakypeter

Well-known member
Messages
1,559
Reaction score
186
I have caught a couple of hundred salmon in the last 10 years or so, all from the southern chalkstreams, all on fly or prawn (just cannot make them stick on spinning!!) A couple of casualties, one on fly, 2 on prawn, some others deep hooked, but not bleeders, all on a barbless single, cut off, and several repeat captures resulting, so not all bad! Just luck where you hook them, certainly on active methods, worming is probably different, but does not need to be, just a tad more refinement to technique needed!
 

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
SOS Quote
In 2016 the river Dee killed 37 Salmon and about the same number of Seatrout in a fly only river, so you could presume they were deeped hooked or bleeders.
That same year before ccr my club which has water on 4 rivers which is all methods (not on all beats) killed 24 Salmon and 12 Seatrout .
But what we dont know is how many fish died after swimming away after release

[/QUOTE]
Killed ? murdered ? Deep hooked ?
Died in or after play sounds a lot better ?
All the fish i have caught deep hooked have all been bleeders, fatal , fish do bleed in most parts of the mouth and survive, but not in the gill region

Yes i suspect many more fatalities after releasing ?
How many all methods CCR & VCR spring and summer fish survive to spawn in the wild rivers after fighting for their lives ? Autumn run fish have a far better chance of survival but the isn't an Autumn run in recent seasons.
Fish have been caught and donated to hatcheries and successfully reproduced, in a safe haven after being caught they have ,

One more thing on FC hooked fish, when they are hooked in the survival region of the mouth and when in play/fighting/leaping the wire on the mount scrapes/rubs/damages the edge of the lips/mouth region of the fish causing injury, loose flesh/skin ,more so on very fresh fish off the tide, seldom any bleeding,not fatal, but not pleasant to see on releasing, I can never recall seeing mouth damage to fly caught fish ? The longer the fish is in the river the tougher the mouth and body armour gets, so not so not as much damage done.
I see the FC may eventually being banned on the Dreaded Tweed as "some" Dreaded Ghillies are calling for it (hopefully not) as of Fed water on the Tyne has spawned this Dreaded rule? Never heard of banning spinning and FC on the Tay ?
Maybe the only savior to prevent this is to have single hooked rigged FC 's ? and dint come up with cutting 1 or 2 hooks off with pliers or wire cutters waste of a FC,
 
Last edited:

SOS

Well-known member
Messages
1,441
Reaction score
324
As someone who fly fishes most of the time but my favourite method is worm fishing you will not get an argument from me.
I do not spin a lot but if i did it would be the F.C then the minnow then the rapala.
 

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
As someone who fly fishes most of the time but my favourite method is worm fishing you will not get an argument from me.
I do not spin a lot but if i did it would be the F.C then the minnow then the rapala.
Argument ? I never started this thread for an argument ? her indoors is always at hand for one , thought this forum was for opinions,questions and answers etc ?
One last question ,is there any AA ,AC beat that allows spinning be it conditions pending, but has banned the Flying C? the Northumbrian Fed is the first I have heard of , hence the word Dreaded
 

Rennie

Well-known member
Messages
5,373
Reaction score
784
Location
Gods County
One wonders of all the fish killed due to deep hooking with any method, were they actually and truly deep hooked!, and it wasn't just an excuse to take a fish for the pot?, especially under C+R rules?.That has to be in the equation somewhere along the line.
I primarily fish the flee, wait for it!, because I enjoy it more and because I tend to pick water thats better suited to fishing the flee!.
In the past 10 years or even a bit longer, I've only had 3 fish deeply hooked on the flee!, and they were so deeply hooked you couldn't even see the flee!, all of them came on shrimpy patterns whilst being F08 retrieved!, trust me returning was no option.Thankfully they were fish in very good condition and outside of C+R criteria, so although disappointed,I wasn't ashamed of the situation (imagine a heavily gravid hen!).
I'm not in favour of method bans at all in fishing (it happen's I have to accept that), however while the method may well be allowed the application of the method by some, or their particular version of applying it - certainly shouldn't!.
We have to accept nowadays there's others fishing the river too, and in this day and age a question developing of those who want to use the river just as much as we do!.
I'll fish the flee all I like and when I like, if you so desire spin all you like when you like, but we won't tread on each others toes just to get a fish!
It's the human who taints the method who needs banning, not the method itself!
Pedro.
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
514
Location
Cheshire
Not quite as punitive a restiction as those imposed by NRW as recommended by their non fishing advisers. Stopped short of rubber hooks, but only just. :unsure:
 

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
Not quite as punitive a restiction as those imposed by NRW as recommended by their non fishing advisers. Stopped short of rubber hooks, but only just. :unsure:
NRW are doing their utmost best to reduce the number of anglers and catches, but nothing can be done to oppose such idiot rules on hooks , Its fine time that licence holders in England and Wales, should have a vote on any new rules on fishing.because the E.A. and NRW are totally clueless .
 

lax

Member
Messages
345
Reaction score
18
It's only dreaded if your in the only way all salmon should be caught on the fly camp , I've seen more fish deaply hooked on the fly than the flying c
seriously?
I think any salmon angler that has fished both methods would say that’s not true
 

Jockiescott

Well-known member
Messages
9,234
Reaction score
2,470
I was talking the man I mentioned on my opening post on this thread on Thursday or Friday of last week. He's no longer able to make it to the river because of his age.

We were chatting about how this season was going and it wasn't long till we were talking about the 'good old days'. He reminded me of the morning he phoned me to come and carry his bag for him. He had caught four grilse in the space of about half an hour. He was well into his 70's at that stage and that was a good few years ago.

I remember that I wasn't too happy about him killing four grilse till he told me that every one of them had swallowed the lot. I remember saying something like, "Aye, likely story". "Wait to you see!", he said. When we got to his house he took the four fish out of his bag and there was only one that you could see the flying c outside of the mouth. And even then it was only the eye. I had to cut the spinners out of each one of the fish for him.

As I said earlier, I've had one fish since 2010, out of well over 100, that I couldn't release on fly. I had to kill fish every year I spun.

It happens very regularly on my river with flying c's. It happened to me often enough during the time that I spun myself. I have seen enough with my own eyes over the years that I do get a bit annoyed when people come on here and insist that salmon don't swallow flying c's. That is just simply wrong!

I know people who could catch 40 or 50 in a season on flying c and know from my own experience and theirs, the damage that's done when they get deep enough into the throat of a fish.

Again, I have nothing whatsoever against spinning. Nothing at all. What I do have a problem with is those trying to state that salmon don't swallow flying c's.
 

Coneheads

Active member
Messages
455
Reaction score
140
Jockiescott
Very interesting post on 4 deep hooked grilse I presume the FC's were armed with trebles ? I wonder if they would all have been as deep hooked with single hooked FC's ?
If a fish engulfs a single hooked FC would it be taken in even deeper ? or maybe slip an inch or 2 further out in the mouth region ?
The treble mounted FC the tails are parted and the treble swivelling/rotating back and forth the rubber tails too when retrieved and looks a great attractor , the single hook FC does not part the tails as much and not as luring as a trebled FC. ?
Its a waste of time fishing a FC with a size 6 or smaller single hook as the blade (NRW rules ? ) may prevent hooking up at all ?a size 4 or 2 is best I have yet to catch a deep hooked fish on a single mounted FC ? out of approx 30 ? I'm sure it will happen one day ? I have even hooked 1 thro the neb , I will say the fish have all fought harder in play ? maybe because only 1 hook and not 3 embedded in the mouth ? I mainly use a single hook FC from August onwards to release all fish and less harm done .
 

Jockiescott

Well-known member
Messages
9,234
Reaction score
2,470
Jockiescott
Very interesting post on 4 deep hooked grilse I presume the FC's were armed with trebles ? I wonder if they would all have been as deep hooked with single hooked FC's ?
If a fish engulfs a single hooked FC would it be taken in even deeper ? or maybe slip an inch or 2 further out in the mouth region ?
The treble mounted FC the tails are parted and the treble swivelling/rotating back and forth the rubber tails too when retrieved and looks a great attractor , the single hook FC does not part the tails as much and not as luring as a trebled FC. ?
Its a waste of time fishing a FC with a size 6 or smaller single hook as the blade (NRW rules ? ) may prevent hooking up at all ?a size 4 or 2 is best I have yet to catch a deep hooked fish on a single mounted FC ? out of approx 30 ? I'm sure it will happen one day ? I have even hooked 1 thro the neb , I will say the fish have all fought harder in play ? maybe because only 1 hook and not 3 embedded in the mouth ? I mainly use a single hook FC from August onwards to release all fish and less harm done .
I did make a few single hooked flying c's but I was more into fly fishing by that stage and probably didn't even use them. I've never hooked a fish on a single hooked spinner so I really cannot comment if they hook differently or not. I know the answer I'd get if I tried to give a single hooked flying c to those who only use that method on my river. It wouldn't be printable on the forum.

I fish hard now in July and August. I ease off in September, really only fishing if there's water I like and I hang the rods up then. With no real signs of a good number of fresh fish entering my river in September and October this past number of years, I really have no interest in fishing for coloured fish at all.
 

lax

Member
Messages
345
Reaction score
18
What part's don't you think it true lax?
All of it. I've fished for salmon my entire life and i know for a fact that you deep hook more fish on a condom than fly. I'm not saying that the method should be banned by any stretch but facts are facts. Maybe you have a dynamic new method that only lip hooks them but I've had lots of fish on C's with a blood trails coming off them as they are ready to land and just the leader showing from their mouths. I've not had a bleeder on fly since 2009. i don't fish C's now for that reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top