Tay 2020

Rennie

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Over on Spey Pages, the mantra is the Tay will be full C+R for the new season,apparently thats from the T.D.S.F. Board!.
Any news from this side of the pond?
Pedro.
 

mc andy

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Looks true Pedro full C&R. Screenshot_20191217-125338.png
 

Rrrr

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Do they control the full river or just certain sections ?.

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mows

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Look on the bright side, it's made a huge difference on all the other rivers that have imposed it. And even better, it's absolutely free. So even if it doesnt work, everyone can pretend they are salmon saviours whilst doing nothing else.
 

mc andy

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If we the anglers ever hope to get something done how can we be seen killing fish and complain about Febs? That is just hypocritical surely?

I'm not say it's the answer to our fish returning but maybe/ hopefully just a start and the people with the powers to start the ball rolling are using this a the first stepping stone. nieve? Possibly, optimistic? Always.

Cheers andy
 

mows

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If we the anglers ever hope to get something done how can we be seen killing fish and complain about Febs? That is just hypocritical surely?

I'm not say it's the answer to our fish returning but maybe/ hopefully just a start and the people with the powers to start the ball rolling are using this a the first stepping stone. nieve? Possibly, optimistic? Always.

Cheers andy
Go back to all the arguments re the Dee C & R debates 10 years ago.
70% smolts currently lost in the upper reaches. Febs and seals aplenty. Very poor season this year. How did it work out for them, other than they pretended to make a difference for free, and and convinced everyone else that their emperor looked absolutely splendid.
 

ArchieL

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I do not know the numbers of fish retained on the Tay last year but i would imagine it would be very small. Even when it was a recommendation by the board that all fish went back until 1st June then there were 1 or 2 beats ignoring this recommendation and killing springers and rumours were 1 beat a few year back killed over 50. Regarding the very small numbers of fish being retained then i see no problem with it as it is very small and most beats are CCR anyway. I do not see an argument regarding being hypocritical with FEB's as birds are killing massive numbers of fish (Yes they are Juveniles) but they are still Salmon & Sea Trout which are being the denied the chance to spawn exactly the same as a summer cock grilse which are being retained. Let us all remember that Anglers are the ones who are pumping the money into the fishery board and tipping the ghillies and staying at the Hotels and eating in the local restaurants. I do not see money being brought to the local economy by bird watchers up to see a merganser/cormorant/goosander .Who would you say is doing the most damage FEB's or anglers regarding salmon killed no matter the age ??

If someone has taken the beat for the week or say 3-4 rods for a week and is up on holiday then i see no harm in them being allowed 1 fish thus allowing them to take a small fish back to their lodge or hotel and have it cooked.

I think these CCR rules are pointless if honest (Look at the Dee) but if they are being implemented with a view to enable a bigger bird cull then i am all for it but caution needs to be taken and the right for anglers to retain small % salmon should always be protected and never lost in legislation.

Anyway as normal i will be out in January looking to get my first January fish as normal and i will be fishing in February as normal also. Funny how the prices never seem to come down when fishing is so poor.
 

mc andy

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I do not know the numbers of fish retained on the Tay last year but i would imagine it would be very small. Even when it was a recommendation by the board that all fish went back until 1st June then there were 1 or 2 beats ignoring this recommendation and killing springers and rumours were 1 beat a few year back killed over 50. Regarding the very small numbers of fish being retained then i see no problem with it as it is very small and most beats are CCR anyway. I do not see an argument regarding being hypocritical with FEB's as birds are killing massive numbers of fish (Yes they are Juveniles) but they are still Salmon & Sea Trout which are being the denied the chance to spawn exactly the same as a summer cock grilse which are being retained. Let us all remember that Anglers are the ones who are pumping the money into the fishery board and tipping the ghillies and staying at the Hotels and eating in the local restaurants. I do not see money being brought to the local economy by bird watchers up to see a merganser/cormorant/goosander .Who would you say is doing the most damage FEB's or anglers regarding salmon killed no matter the age ??

If someone has taken the beat for the week or say 3-4 rods for a week and is up on holiday then i see no harm in them being allowed 1 fish thus allowing them to take a small fish back to their lodge or hotel and have it cooked.

I think these CCR rules are pointless if honest (Look at the Dee) but if they are being implemented with a view to enable a bigger bird cull then i am all for it but caution needs to be taken and the right for anglers to retain small % salmon should always be protected and never lost in legislation.

Anyway as normal i will be out in January looking to get my first January fish as normal and i will be fishing in February as normal also. Funny how the prices never seem to come down when fishing is so poor.

my hope, wish exactly.
 

Rrrr

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Has the grading changed for the Tay i.e. all fish go back dead or alive?
The actual paragraph is abit vague to be honest as it says fish "should" be released not "must", the way i see it is.... we dont want you taking fish but arent going to do anything about it if you do.

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Grassy_Knollington

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The actual paragraph is abit vague to be honest as it says fish "should" be released not "must", the way i see it is.... we dont want you taking fish but arent going to do anything about it if you do.

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In Scotland Fishery Boards make recommendations but these do not have any force in law. Scot Gov river categories and C&R rules are law.

Most beat owners are active members of the board and most will ensure their guests are requested to follow the rules. The implication being that if if you do chap fish you won’t be welcome back. Might be worth it for a nice fresh smoker in the mid teens mind:D

Never fished the Tay, here’s some food for thought:

Proposals to ban the shrimp and prawn completely from the Tay system we’re sched to be put to a meeting of the Tay DSFB in late August...... It is understood that the proposals are being opposed in some quarters, with a number of Ghillies unhappy about the suggestions. However a number of riparian owners already an these baits, along with worm on their stretches.

- Taysider, T&S ‘Fishing Reports’ September 1999.

The Tay Ghillies association would’ve agreeable to bag limits and Spring C&R policy it said “surely if this is the case, it does not matter what the Salmon are caught on, as long as they are returned”. The problem facing the river is the increasing loss of Parr and Smolts which are destroyed by birds, or the victims of Seals and pollution. “We’re this to be rectified, at no distant date, our rivers could be teeming with Salmon again, the Ghillies Association argued.

- Taysider, T&S ‘Fishing Reports’ Dec 1998

The final (1997) count for the Board’s Ericht fish counter was 13438, well below the 17000 estimate - but still the highest since the counter was installed in 1991, the average since the counter went in has been 7976

Taysider, T&S ‘Fishing Reports’ Feb 1998

Between half and two thirds of rods on the Ballathie (timeshare) scheme have been taken. The 1 3:4 miles have a 5 year average of 690 fish.

Cargill, just under 1, 3/4 miles of left bank, has a 5 year average of 602 fish. .

- Derek Bingham, T&S ‘Property Watch’, Feb 1998

Current 5YA figures are 186 and 273 respectively.
 

Rennie

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I will lay money, whatever happens, fish will be taken.There's still timeshare on Tay and rods will see their "investments" being devalued at 100% c+r.
It's also highly likely that rods will turn up for their week and TELL the Ghillie, they will be taking fish!, the Ghillies eye is on his tip, so he won't be rocking the boat.How can a timeshare owner not be invited back?, or is that what they want?, a way to get their money back and not be lumbered any longer with a rapidly devaluing investment!.
I still think the current total mis management of the situation on the whole-UK wide- is angled towards a certain goal, and thats the cessation of Angling, certainly for Salmon(as thats where the money ,power and influence is present the most!) with that filtering down through other branches of the sport over time.
The clocks ticking friends, make the most while the sun still has a glimmer of light for us!.
Pedro.
 

ArchieL

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If it is Scottish law this year then they will all go back whether time share rod or not, Ghillies will not take the chance of arrest and criminal records. If it is a recommendation which is basically just extending the recommendation in place at present then there will be beats that take fish. Whichever it is only proves that there will be no real government money or bird culls done and the only way they can be seen to be "trying to halt the decline" is to introduce CCR across the river. Do not think for 1 minute if Scot gov thought they could implement new legislation and take over the running of all Scottish rivers that they would hesitate ? The only thing stopping them is they see the work & money raised and spent by the boards and they would just want to run things by legislation without actually funding or doing anything. I do believe that the Scottish ministers would have already looked into trying to control Salmon fishing but have deemed it too much hassle as again they see it as a sport for the "Rich Englishmen" who come up each year to live like Lairds on the fancy Estates.
 

keirstream

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The Board wanted M.S.S. to approve the legal implementation of 100% C % R on a year to year basis and were told that this move would upset the already well criticized categorization system throughout other river systems in Scotland. They then decided towards the end of the season, to canvass the Tay river proprietors for their views on the subject on a binding poll. The result returned as a slight majority for the amendment and this was considered not to be enough to persuade M.S.S. to reconsider and so moved towards issuing the new guidelines which remain voluntary outwith the legally binding spring period.
So there you are.
Some would say, including myself, that the recommendation is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas, but in reality, nothing changes. I can't see many beats refusing to allow a fish to be taken given the parlous state of lets but I do know of some that have adopted the rule already simply as a beat rule and will not allow any fish to be taken. The good thing about it is that at least badly bleeding fish can be despatched quickly and not forced to return them for a slow death. Best to check first if you feel strongly about it.:nod:
 
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ArchieL

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Sign of the times , i remember if you got a decent fish in the mid teens i would jump in to Dunkeld on the way home to hand the fish in to the Smokery and ask them to do the cold smoke then vacuum pack them in portions and i would return to collect it. Sometimes you had to wait a few good weeks as they were that busy . Now the last time i was in he was selling all the farmed stuff . Sat in a boat 2 years ago on the Tay with my Ghillie and i was pointing out a large group of Goosanders which were hunting the edges on the far bank. I was informed that these birds do not do that much damage as the parr and smolts run at night down the middle of the river. I pointed out that my previous Ghillie on another beat said the sides of the river used to be black with parr and smolts in April & May and there was never any FEB's seen which seemed to silence him. Seems like everybody just disagrees with everything related to salmon these days. Jeez now even if you get a fish you get told to keep it in the net and only the Ghillie shall lift it and release it, sometimes i think if they are that precious then why do i spend my time fishing for them..If handled correctly with wet hands then no problems with a picture. remember these fish will be flinging themselves up small waterfalls and battering themselves off rocks on their way upstream to spawn. Slightly side tracked there but bored at work :rant:
 
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Grassy_Knollington

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The Board wanted M.S.S. to approve the legal implementation of 100% C % R on a year to year basis and were told that this move would upset the already well criticized categorization system throughout other river systems in Scotland. They then decided towards the end of the season, to canvass the Tay river proprietors for their views on the subject on a binding poll. The result returned as a slight majority for the amendment and this was considered not to be enough to persuade M.S.S. to reconsider and so moved towards issuing the new guidelines which remain voluntary outwith the legally binding spring period.
So there you are.
Some would say, including myself, that the recommendation is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas, but in reality, nothing changes. I can't see many beats refusing to allow a fish to be taken given the parlous state of lets but I do know of some that have adopted the rule already simply as a beat rule and will not allow any fish to be taken. The good thing about it is that at least badly bleeding fish can be despatched quickly and not forced to return them for a slow death. Best to check first if you feel strongly about it.:nod:

It’s a sad state of affairs when it a board considers it worthwhile to spend time and money asking MSS to give a legal basis to the board’s own half-baked ideas. There’s clearly little or no trust of at least some proprietors and anglers.

Why would SG upset the sainted categorisation system? What were they thinking? I can only guess they’ve ran out of ideas and can’t come up with anything else. Carry on like this and the river will be Cat 2 or 3 soon anyway.

The problem is that if you give someone a job they’ll try and do it, even if it’s pointless. For all the boards in Scotland this should be a salutary warning that the standard prescription for poor stocks doesn’t have any real life impact. This is:

Step 1: Restrict bait fishing
Step 2: Spring C&R
Step 3: C&R for everything but Grilse
Step 4: ‘Encourage’ full C&R
Step 5: ‘Require full C&R
Step 6: Ban some hooks

I guess if you only give a man a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
 

ArchieL

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It’s a sad state of affairs when it a board considers it worthwhile to spend time and money asking MSS to give a legal basis to the board’s own half-baked ideas. There’s clearly little or no trust of at least some proprietors and anglers.

Why would SG upset the sainted categorisation system? What were they thinking? I can only guess they’ve ran out of ideas and can’t come up with anything else. Carry on like this and the river will be Cat 2 or 3 soon anyway.

The problem is that if you give someone a job they’ll try and do it, even if it’s pointless. For all the boards in Scotland this should be a salutary warning that the standard prescription for poor stocks doesn’t have any real life impact. This is:

Step 1: Restrict bait fishing
Step 2: Spring C&R
Step 3: C&R for everything but Grilse
Step 4: ‘Encourage’ full C&R
Step 5: ‘Require full C&R
Step 6: Ban some hooks

I guess if you only give a man a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

Hi GK

You missed a few steps out so i have sorted this for you.

Step 1: Restrict bait fishing
Step 2: Spring C&R
Step 3: C&R for everything but Grilse
Step 4: ‘Encourage’ full C&R
Step 5: ‘Require full C&R
Step 6: Ban some hooks
Step 7: Try and convince and brainwash the fishers to embrace being out in the countryside and not catching fish is just as fulfilling.
Step 8. Inform the Ghillie he has not to talk to paying guests about anything related to catch returns, FEB's,CCR.
 

barbonboy

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I will still be taking my four, or five visits. Ok, if im lucky enough to catch fish they will have to be returned, but I have been releasing fish, for the past 10 years. I also enjoy the company, and the craic. I can understand that if you would like to take the odd fish, this move would not be welcomed by you. When you compare the cost of a days fishing compared to a round of golf, on a good course, I dont think its too bad, and we get a full day. Im sure people will make their own minds up. This is only my own personal view, on the matter.
 
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Stu101

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I will still be taking my four, or five visits. Ok, if im lucky enough to catch fish they will have to be returned, but I have been releasing fish, for the past 10 years. I also enjoy the company, and the craic. I can understand that if you would like to take the odd fish, this move would not be welcomed by you. When you compare the cost of a days fishing compared to a round of golf, on a good course, I dont think its too bad, and we get a full day. Im sure people will make their own minds up. This is only my own personal view, on the matter.

I've a couple of day in february on Stobhall. Looking forward to getting back out. Never taken a fish in my life, but i dont begrudge those that do. Wont have any affect on me on that basis.
 
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