take it lying down my fawlty

Jockiescott

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Jockiescott, I hear you, I really do. It's still one of those problems I still can't get my head around no matter how hard I try. But clearly a huge one where you live. I grew up watching the 'Troubles' on TV Why don't I understand it? I grew up in the East Coast of Scotland where we were taught in multi faith schools. Sectarianism just never, ever featured.

Rather strangely for my time at Secondary school, 40 years ago, I had a Pakistani mate and a black one, as well as the 'general' mix of Jewish, Catholic, C of S and a strong Brethren influence.

Other than the strange practice of the Brethren kids being taken out of class if we were being shown anything on TV, everyone else just mucked in together and were friends.
I remember we had two families of Jehova's witnesses in primary school and our only gripe with them was that they were allowed to play computer games when we had to go to assembly! 😂

I was very fortunate where I grew up. While you would have encountered and seen sectarianism in the town or the bigger housing estates, my wee housing estate was great. There were only 24 houses in it and it was almost a 50/50 mix. Everyone just played football or cricket and went to fish together and religion was never mentioned.

Even today, if there's a wedding or a funeral the respective churches are just filled with locals, regardless of religion.
 

Safranfoer

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Don't even go there Dee! I lost a good job back in my 20's for refusing the sexual advances of a creepy old manager. He had the power to go to the bosses and have me binned and did. Even worse, the Director who fired my was a friend of my parents. (He did subsequently offer unqualified apologies many years later after his ex manager got done for child sex abuse)

Do I get all out of shape about it now...nah. The stupid old bastard got his come uppance and I refuse to get myself twisted up about it. It's simply just not worth the my time.
I'm not twisted up about 'Uncle Mike'. I just wish I had stood my ground against him, even if it meant I was seen as awkward and hostile. Like the young black kids that refuse to drop the patois just to appease us, do. White kids have their own dense and inpenetrable vocabulary, too. When Seth is talking to his friends, I understand very little.
 

Neil W

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The reality that everyone seems to miss is that racism exists in many forms. White people are racist and yes black people are also racist. Antony Joshua was racist when he said black people should not shop in white peoples shops. Stormzy is racist when he says he will put money into black peoples charities for the disadvantaged. He should be putting it into the disadvantaged people whatever their colour. if a white person said they would put money into white disadvantaged then that would be racist which it is by definition. It seems to be a human condition just like bullying. The problem is constantly setting it up as white v black. This is not healthy. The more we talk about it and talk about BLM the more there will be discrimination as you are constantly separating black and white people. At the end of the day we are all just people and the colour of your skin is irrelevant. The answer is not constantly banging on about colour of your skin which seems to be the narrative of today. Anyway rant over, it won’t change as all these protest groups are set up to make noise and money which equals power. I also think the media whips things up unnecessarily by their reporting and the bbc is one of the worse culprit’s
 

westie4566

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I'm not twisted up about 'Uncle Mike'. I just wish I had stood my ground against him, even if it meant I was seen as awkward and hostile. Like the young black kids that refuse to drop the patois just to appease us, do. White kids have their own dense and inpenetrable vocabulary, too. When Seth is talking to his friends, I understand very little.
Aaah the 'yoof' of today.....and your still a young 'un Dee. :p 😁 (y) You need to get down with Seth...if that's the right terminology?😁
 

Safranfoer

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Aaah the 'yoof' of today.....and your still a young 'un Dee. :p 😁 (y) You need to get down with Seth...if that's the right terminology?😁
He called me a 'simp' the other day. No idea. Googled it and turns out he doesn't either, it being an insult for men.
 

SOS

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Just watched a docu L.A.92 the riots,
Worth watching, same situation with bad cops,corrupt juries and protests/riots that got out of control.
The people who were most picked on were Koreans by the blacks protesting about racism.
There are no winners in what happened only a destroyed city,anyone who thinks protests or counter protests are a good thing should watch it.
 

Safranfoer

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I've been chatting about this tonight, SOS... I can't think of any instance in history where equal rights were given, rather than taken. The Sufragettes died for the vote. The Stonewall Riots helped the gay community realise they didn't have to accept that their love was a criminal act, while the White Night Riots saw more LGBT representatives in government and the police force. In this country, Section 28 protestors played a part in securing its repeal by applying visible pressure.

The Civil Rights movement in America in the 60s... Rosa Parks. Would black people even be classed as human today, without the power of protest?

And stepping out of human rights, the Poll Tax Riots - they demonstrated the strength of public opinion and actually contributed to the downfall of Thatcher.

These are just examples off the top of my head.

People shouldn't have to take what is rightfully theirs. It should be given freely. But while the general attitude that, this isn't a real problem, prevails - people will be forced to take, because the establishment refuses to give. While people try to deny racism exists, or diminish it, the protests will happen.
 

SOS

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But why should something that happened in the U.S lead to protests in the U.K?
What about the rights of people in China,North Korea,saudi ,Iran,Russia etc etc what do we do for them.
In this country there is so much P.C about employment that in the public sector and the media that your religion,gender or race will be a big factor on getting a job rather than you being the best person for the job.
In my job as a taxi driver the council who issue the licenses decided that there had to be so many Asians,blacks and female drivers that the tests for them were made easier than the test for a white local male,so discrimination is not just a one way street
 

happy days

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But why should something that happened in the U.S lead to protests in the U.K?
What about the rights of people in China,North Korea,saudi ,Iran,Russia etc etc what do we do for them.
In this country there is so much P.C about employment that in the public sector and the media that your religion,gender or race will be a big factor on getting a job rather than you being the best person for the job.
In my job as a taxi driver the council who issue the licenses decided that there had to be so many Asians,blacks and female drivers that the tests for them were made easier than the test for a white local male,so discrimination is not just a one way street
Your right mate US cops killing people can only be stopped by Americans, and they dont just kill Blacks by the way, all BLM have achieved in UK is mobilised the right wing dckheads seen on Saturday and made the indifferent think what have rogue cops in the states got to do with us. You could also throw Palestine and Yemen into your list of things worth protesting about if we are concerned about foreign countries. While UK isn't perfect and never will be if you've got the will and the wherewithal you can get on no matter the shade of the "ghetto" you started off in.
 

T7

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People have been quietly protesting/lobbying for slave trader statues to be removed for years. Now there will be a review into all the statues in the country. Ignore people for long enough and this is what happens
 

Cyclops

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I can’t understand how any of the protests have been allowed to be held in the last few weeks, as any gathering of more than six people from different households would be a breach of coronavirus regulations? of course the right to protest won’t go away after lockdown restrictions ease further, but a lot of the unsavoury scenes, including statue removals, could have been avoided meantime.
 

Perrypokemon

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Perhaps the protests have been allowed to be held because just maybe the protesters have been acting on instinct. Maybe some of them are furloughed opticians and are conducting eye tests on other protesters before they drive 265 miles to get home. Of course it could just be that police and crime commissioners, chief constables and other senior police officers may see the writing on the wall or even on the statues and accept that the BAME population will no longer accept racism casual or otherwise aimed at them. Maybe they also see in the writing that a growing number of non ethnic people in Britain now accepting that racism must end and end now and that by not speaking out against it we are just giving it some kind of tacit approval.
 

Safranfoer

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But why should something that happened in the U.S lead to protests in the U.K?
What about the rights of people in China,North Korea,saudi ,Iran,Russia etc etc what do we do for them.
In this country there is so much P.C about employment that in the public sector and the media that your religion,gender or race will be a big factor on getting a job rather than you being the best person for the job.
In my job as a taxi driver the council who issue the licenses decided that there had to be so many Asians,blacks and female drivers that the tests for them were made easier than the test for a white local male,so discrimination is not just a one way street
Positive discrimination is necessary BECAUSE regular discrimination exists. If asian and black people and women weren't routinely looked over in spite of it being illegal, because of discrimination, quotas wouldn't exist. If we want a true meritocracy, we have to stop being systemically racist, sexist, homophobic and ableist. It's really quite easy to make it stop - if you open your eyes to there being a problem in the first place.

People in the UK aren't protesting for America. They're seizing the moment while the Black Lives Matter movement is in the news to apply pressure here - for Windrush, for Grenfell, for the fact that black people are 40 times more likely to be stopped and searched, for the fact that institutional racism across the board means their kids have far fewer choices. The suffragette movement was international. Should women in the UK not have protested, because what happens to American women isn't their business?
 

salarchaser

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Positive discrimination is necessary BECAUSE regular discrimination exists. If asian and black people and women weren't routinely looked over in spite of it being illegal, because of discrimination, quotas wouldn't exist. If we want a true meritocracy, we have to stop being systemically racist, sexist, homophobic and ableist. It's really quite easy to make it stop - if you open your eyes to there being a problem in the first place.

People in the UK aren't protesting for America. They're seizing the moment while the Black Lives Matter movement is in the news to apply pressure here - for Windrush, for Grenfell, for the fact that black people are 40 times more likely to be stopped and searched, for the fact that institutional racism across the board means their kids have far fewer choices. The suffragette movement was international. Should women in the UK not have protested, because what happens to American women isn't their business?
Positive descrination is not acceptable.
Its not fixing the root cause and potentially causes further division and animosity.
It should be down to the best person for the job.

And just to stir it up.
Every company wants to employ a blind, one legged, black lesbian.
Ticks so many boxes.
 

mows

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Positive discrimination is necessary BECAUSE regular discrimination exists. If asian and black people and women weren't routinely looked over in spite of it being illegal, because of discrimination, quotas wouldn't exist. If we want a true meritocracy, we have to stop being systemically racist, sexist, homophobic and ableist. It's really quite easy to make it stop - if you open your eyes to there being a problem in the first place.

People in the UK aren't protesting for America. They're seizing the moment while the Black Lives Matter movement is in the news to apply pressure here - for Windrush, for Grenfell, for the fact that black people are 40 times more likely to be stopped and searched, for the fact that institutional racism across the board means their kids have far fewer choices. The suffragette movement was international. Should women in the UK not have protested, because what happens to American women isn't their business?
There's no such thing as positive discrimination.
It's just discrimination dressed up to not look like discrimination.
All discrimination is positive for someone.
It never makes it right though.
 

T7

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Positive descrination is not acceptable.
Its not fixing the root cause and potentially causes further division and animosity.
It should be down to the best person for the job.

And just to stir it up.
Every company wants to employ a blind, one legged, black lesbian.
Ticks so many boxes.
‘Best’ person according to whom? Therein lies the problem
 

Jockiescott

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This appeared on my Facebook feed last night. I really don't know where it originated from. It could have started from a far right nut job, but the words and sentiment certainly rings true with many at this time. It does have a ring of 'propaganda' about it but this is what the vast majority of the ordinary folk in the street believe. Especially the last paragraph.

"NOT MY WORDS, BUT THE NAIL HAS BEEN WELL AND TRULY HIT IN THE HEAD BY THIS GUY .....

A few weeks ago we were a nation united, cheering for Major Tom Moore who has raised over £34m for the NHS, we were "Clapping for Carers", setting up community groups to help the vulnerable, the Blitz Spirit some had even called it..

Then George Floyd was killed nearly 4,000 miles away, everyone united in knowing what happened was wrong and whatever his past it wasn't deserved, the officers involved already arrested and charged so justice done!

Yet for some reason mob mentality has set in, society was wholly behind the cause and racial cohesion couldn't have been better but sadly you've trashed buildings, businesses ruined, livelihoods torn apart and people killed for trying to defend their property, war memorials for people who fought for this freedom of speech you're taking the **** with desecrated even on this day, the 76th Anniversary of D-day which hasn't been mentioned once in the news!

Congratulations, you've taken a united society and divided it! You've enforced racial stereotypes and set back racial unity by 100 years by behaving like animals!

But that's not all, gathering in the thousands during a pandemic and creating a perfect breeding ground for Covid, spitting at volunteers who were trying to clean your graffiti off of war memorials, it's pissing in the face of the likes of Major Tom Moore, the NHS workers and indeed every single person thats struggled through both in life and mentally the last few months and literally all you've done is make everything ten times worse, "oh but I'm happy to risk my safety for what I believe in", oh well done you, what a martyr! What about the safety of everyone else you could be unknowingly spreading Covid to over the next week or 2, happy to sacrifice them too are you? Yes? Well you're no better than the cop who killed George Floyd!
"

That appears to have been written before the football hooligans got their chance to shine at the weekend. And, to be clear, there should be no need for ANYONE to protest at this fragile time for everyone's health and our economy.

The conspiracy theorists have also been busy over the past few weeks. Many believing that these protests were only allowed to happen because cases of covid were already increasing and the government needs the economy back up and running. They point to the media really only focusing on the protests in areas where the R number is highest around the country. They say that the Colston statue was basically a prop to focus attention on the massed crowds which the governmet will point to to blame for the rising R number in the South West for example. The weekends before the protests, all the media attention was on packed beaches and parks which didn't look good for the governments handling of the easing of lockdown. Now make the media look at other mass gatherings that the government can pass the blame onto when it suits them. Of course, this could be from far left nut jobs but again, many people believe such things.

If there is a spike in new cases over the coming weeks, who will get the blame? You can be sure that there are those sitting ready to latch onto any rise in cases to point fingers at the BLM protests. I hope and pray that there is no rise in cases. If there is a rise in cases, the BLM movement my just have scored an almighty own goal.
 

Walleye

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Congratulations, you've taken a united society and divided it! You've enforced racial stereotypes and set back racial unity by 100 years by behaving like animals!
This bit of course is the point of view from the white corner. I assume it must be, because few who face institutional racism on a regular basis would ever say we live in a united society.

When we have equality for all, then and only then will we have a united society. So they haven't put anything back 100 years; they've simply shone a light into the dark corners of our society. What do we do? Do we recognise there are problems or just switch off that pesky flashlight and ignore what lurks in those dark corners of our society and pretend we live in unity, in a society that works for all?
 

Jockiescott

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This bit of course is the point of view from the white corner. I assume it must be, because few who face institutional racism on a regular basis would ever say we live in a united society.

When we have equality for all, then and only then will we have a united society. So they haven't put anything back 100 years; they've simply shone a light into the dark corners of our society. What do we do? Do we recognise there are problems or just switch off that pesky flashlight and ignore what lurks in those dark corners of our society and pretend we live in unity, in a society that works for all?
Lovely thoughts and words Walleye but out of the length of my post, that is the one section you pick up on?

Yes, I firmly believe in equality for all but it just isn't as simple as that. God knows, that is the world I want to live in. We have equality legislation in Northern Ireland but, as I have tried to get across in my posts on this thread, we still have deep division after 20 odd years with people, no, political parties, rolling out the equality bandwagon when it suits them. Is that really how you see equality or how you would like it to be?

What can you do in the UK today which means you are not sitting 20 years from now with the same problems that we have in Northern Ireland? It may say 100 years in the piece I copied but surely even another 20 years is too long?
 

salarchaser

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‘Best’ person according to whom? Therein lies the problem
I agree.
However, as I stated, dictating that a fixed percentage of applicants or employees are from certain segments of society doesnt fix the problem. It exacerbates it by creating friction.

The father of a friend was head postmaster in a large town in south wales. He was told he had to recruit from certain minorities. Ended up with customer facing staff who could barely speak english, let alone welsh. Complaints through the roof.
Best people for the job? No. But boxes were ticked.
Some years ago, but still relevant.
 

SOS

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How can you say that the Grenfell fire was anything to do with racism,fire will not discriminate,it will burn who ever is in its path .
Kids have the right to go to school whatever their background with no discrimination,it is then up to them how they apply themselves.
Then they leave school and if they wish they can go to college or uni,and TBH in Scotland foreign students including English are more likely to get the places than Scots because they have to pay while Scots dont, So you could say there is a bit of discrimination,(but against Scots).

As for stop and search in Aberdeen white youths are probably 100 times more likely to be stopped by the police than other races,but this has to do with population and the profiling that the police use,and the same would apply in areas where the population is predominantly of a certain race or religion, but seems that every person of all races and religions think they are been picked on when they are stopped.
If there is an area that has a high percentage of black youths and there is a problem with guns,knives and drugs it is obvious that the police would stop and search the people with the profile that fits the problem if they did not there would be an outcry that the police are doing nothing to stop the drug trade,shootings and stabbings.
Who in their right mind would want to be a cop in this day and age when you cant say boo to someone without a complaint being made against you.
 
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