Six Nations Rugby 2021

peterchilton

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From the referee that I would respect the most


Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.

“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.

“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.

“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.

“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.

“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.

“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.

“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”


and

The second contentious Wales try came on 29 minutes when the officials decided there had not been a knock on by Louis Rees-Zammit ahead of full-back Liam Williams touching down.

But Owens views the incident in a different light.

“It was definitely a knock on,” he said, elaborating on the points he made on S4C.

“You see situations sometimes where a player loses control of a ball and then kicks it before it hits the ground. Well, that’s still classed as a knock on.

“What the law says is if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else.

“So, in this case, Rees-Zammit definitely touches the ball and it travels forward on to his calf, then goes backwards and then comes off an England player.

“So it has travelled forward off his hand first and he fails to regain possession of it, which means it’s a knock on.

“If it hits his hand and goes backwards, then it’s play on.

“But it hits his hand, the ball is still travelling forward and then it hits his calf and goes backwards.

“So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on.

“If anybody wants an answer on it, look at Rees-Zammit’s face when they award the try.

“It’s 100 per cent a knock on.


anyone good enough or experienced enough to argue with him? The referee ruined the match.
 

salarchaser

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Maro Itoje is a really wonderful player but now exemplifies exactly what is wrong with today's game. His reaction to the Youngs try - "beating" the Welsh prop prone on the ground who missed the tackle - was appalling and does him, English rugby and rugby in general huge disservice. I fear any talk of Maro as Lions captain is delusional as you must be so much more than a great player for that honour.

Itoje gave away five penalties yesterday and was involved in other stuff yet he finished the game -
I concur Jack.
Itoje has a lot of great attributes and is a very good player.
As you rightly say, his behaviour at times is very poor especially his 'celebrations' when, often minor, decisions go his way. Celebrating a try is one thing. Belittling an opposition something else. He even celebrates a knock on like he's won the world cup. Not very becoming.
I wonder how he'd have reacted if the Welsh players slapped his back every time he gave away a penalty and we took 3 points.
I agree that his behaviour is not that of a captain and leader.
Though I fear that Eddie Jones encourages this culture.
Most coaches try and get an advantage, some take it further than others.

One thing I'd penalise is when replacements warming up in the dead ball area and rushing to celebrate a try, often bumping into the defending side causing friction. The shouldn't be in the field of play, which the in goal area is, and should be punished for being there. 🤬
 

Aled

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peterchilton, i agree if Nigel Owens says no try, then neither were tries. Us Welsh got very lucky.
Cheers
Aled
 

Handel

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Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.

“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.

“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.

“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.

“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.

“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.

“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.

“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”


and

The second contentious Wales try came on 29 minutes when the officials decided there had not been a knock on by Louis Rees-Zammit ahead of full-back Liam Williams touching down.

But Owens views the incident in a different light.

“It was definitely a knock on,” he said, elaborating on the points he made on S4C.

“You see situations sometimes where a player loses control of a ball and then kicks it before it hits the ground. Well, that’s still classed as a knock on.

“What the law says is if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else.

“So, in this case, Rees-Zammit definitely touches the ball and it travels forward on to his calf, then goes backwards and then comes off an England player.

“So it has travelled forward off his hand first and he fails to regain possession of it, which means it’s a knock on.

“If it hits his hand and goes backwards, then it’s play on.

“But it hits his hand, the ball is still travelling forward and then it hits his calf and goes backwards.

“So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on.

“If anybody wants an answer on it, look at Rees-Zammit’s face when they award the try.

“It’s 100 per cent a knock on.


anyone good enough or experienced enough to argue with him? The referee ruined the match.
I am sure Nigel is right on both counts but I am not sure it helps. Taking the second point first, we aren't talking about a solitary referee here, we are talking about a team of four one of whom is sat in a warm studio with lots of film of the incident available. I didn't hear one voice suggesting that there was a problem. I must admit I have never seen that happen before and I thought it was a knock on, weird as it was, but if four senior referees don't immediately say knock on then maybe the laws need looking at.

The first incident should have England asking themselves what they should have done differently not looking for excuses. I didn't think then was the moment for the referee to tell the captain to go and talk to his players as the most recent offender was the captain himself. But he did. I doubt he expected Farrell to do anything very much, he seldom does as the referee asks and given his reaction to being penalised (which was very poor) it was most unlikely. So why did the England players get together? Because they though Biggar was going to kick at goal, after all an easy three points. And were they talking about discipline? I very much doubt it. So England just switched off. And as OSF has pointed out they did it again for the third try - the last line of defence, 15, Daly, wasn't even looking.

Good post by Jack on Itoje and I see Matt Dawson says this morning in his column that he (Itoje not Jack) should have been binned. But those Sarries players aren't rugby players at the moment, they are rugby trainers, they are not match fit. Talking of yellow cards, as pfeul said last night, Farrell nearly talked himself into one.
 

pfeul

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Whatever he's right or not, I don't like the post game analysis of Nigel Owens in the newspaper after every 6 nations game.
He's definitely one of the greatest ref if not the best but doing so he presents himself as the godfather of the refs who he's not. I find it rather disrespectful for his former colleagues.
Last week was the dive of Johnny May and this time the knock on. What will it be next time?
As Handel said there were 4 experienced refs on the pitch yesterday and one should remember that basic rule of rugby is that the ref is always right whatever the result. This should hold for Owens too.
World rugby should investigate this for preventing newly retired refs to comment the referring of those who were their colleagues several months ago.
Even in football where there's much more debate about referring, I've never seen the same
 

peterchilton

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Oddly, Sky often have retired refs giving opinions during soccer games, It also happens in American Football. So why is rugby so different.
Best thing is for the refs to get it right and stop affecting the games so much.
 

salarchaser

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Whatever he's right or not, I don't like the post game analysis of Nigel Owens in the newspaper after every 6 nations game.
He's definitely one of the greatest ref if not the best but doing so he presents himself as the godfather of the refs who he's not. I find it rather disrespectful for his former colleagues.
Last week was the dive of Johnny May and this time the knock on. What will it be next time?
As Handel said there were 4 experienced refs on the pitch yesterday and one should remember that basic rule of rugby is that the ref is always right whatever the result. This should hold for Owens too.
World rugby should investigate this for preventing newly retired refs to comment the referring of those who were their colleagues several months ago.
Even in football where there's much more debate about referring, I've never seen the same
I agree on the Owens front, shouldnt comment. Still refs at all levels below internationals but enjoys the limelight.
Has his own and appears on several chat shows on S4C.
Genuine character though. Often refs junior grade rugby.
Once offered to ref a game for a youth team to raise money for charity. Date arranged during a weekend he wasnt on international duty. However, due to unavailability of another ref he was called up for an international. Was involved in the game and rather than stay overnight, travelled straight back to S Wales not to leave the youth team down.

Also agree on the Farrell comment.
You have to adapt and play to the ref. If he says the offside line is 3 yards back, then the offside line us 3 yards back, provided it is applied consistantly. Had that with a ref once (not 3 yards obviously, but he was keen on the offside line for both teams). As captain, I made sure that after the first couple penalties none of our players was pinged for that again. We played to the ref.
England have huge experience in the team, but no one took charge.

No legisating for the contentious decisions, but off side happens every game.
 

pfeul

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I've really enjoyed watching owens for years and also like the amazing character he is.
I've been listening to a bonus podcast to the ruck rugby podcast where he's been interviewed. He has an amazing story and he's really appealing.
The point is that he gets so much light on him and has retired for not so long that any of his comments might throw some shadow on his colleagues.
He should wait for several years being sufficiently out of the circus to do such comments in the newspaper
 

mows

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Does Maro being so abusive set the tone? I fear it does


Another appalling step into the darkness for the game I used to love
I dont agree with the abuse at all, but she was out of order in trying to force contraversial comments from Farrell and Eddie, which would have got them in trouble.
 

mows

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That Mows, uncomfortable as it may be, is her job
Not when she keeps pushing it.
I certainly dont see it as her job to get the captain or coach in to serious bother.
They gave their answer.
She keep ignoring it and pushing.
Whilst watching it i thought she was out of order and so did the missus.
 

salarchaser

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Not when she keeps pushing it.
I certainly dont see it as her job to get the captain or coach in to serious bother.
They gave their answer.
She keep ignoring it and pushing.
Whilst watching it i thought she was out of order and so did the missus.
She asked once about the cross kick, asked what he said to the ref, asked about the knock on, asked about the ill discipline.
4 questions once each. Not sure she kept pushing it. As Jack says, its her job.
Farrall did ok with his answers. A bit like he was chewing a wasp, but ok.
No bottom lip like Mike Brown.
If Farrell doesnt want to be asked those questions, he shouldnt be captain. Its HIS job.
Same sorts of questions asked of Alan Wyn but from a different perspective. He also answered diplomatically.
An uncomfortable exchange but not unreasonable.
I'm sure he'd have been happier discussing a win but he wasnt.
Rough with the smooth.

However, the vitriol directed at mxLaughlan is unacceptable.
 

peterchilton

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The anger and vitriol directed, unacceptable as it might have been was not induced by the england rugby team, more like the supporters who felt robbed, and they were. Still doesn't make it right to treat a reporter in that way.
 

Aled

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pfeul, interesting point about Owens, i hadn't considered it before, Owens is a natural entertainer, his time with Eisteddfods and Young Farmers club means its in him, so perhaps now he is off the international scene, he needs another outlet?
Cheers
Aled
 

salarchaser

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pfeul, interesting point about Owens, i hadn't considered it before, Owens is a natural entertainer, his time with Eisteddfods and Young Farmers club means its in him, so perhaps now he is off the international scene, he needs another outlet?
Cheers
Aled
He's done stand up comedy, so obviously likes an audiance.
I seem to remember he used it as therapy before he came out.
He's had a troubled life, bulimia, steroids, suicidal thoughts, all because of his sexuality
He seems more stable in his life and enjoys his new farm and was on the radio the other weekend talking about calving.

I think he feels more able to comment on other referees now he is off the international panel. Can't be seen as slagging off the competition.
Its a fine line to tread, but I'm sure his opinion is valued.
To be fair to him, he's self critical as well. Has often spoken about errors he made when reffing, and not just individual mistakes but his general interpretation of certain laws.
Indeed, a couple were those Saturday's ref pinged England and occassonally Wales for.
People offside chasing a kick (Wales and England), people offside by sneaking up the side of rucks (Itoje).
 

mows

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Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.

“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.

“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.

“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.

“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.

“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.

“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.

“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”
I cant remember exactly what farrell said to the ref, but i only heard him say something about the water boy.
Nothing about not finishing his talk.
 

salarchaser

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I cant remember exactly what farrell said to the ref, but i only heard him say something about the water boy.
Nothing about not finishing his talk.
It was all the water carriers on the pitch and not being allowed time to set defensively.
I think if the ref had shouted ' owen, get set as Im putting time back on', there would be no issue.
He just stuck his hand up and shouted 'time on' though.

Its interesting to watch the reaction of different England players through this. Looking from the Welsh end, the English players on the right were in position before the ref blew. They can be seen running to position. Those on the left were slower. Indeed the player who got to Adams was Ford who reacted fastest. No sign of May.

In no way am I saying the ref got it right, but England werent aware. Same as with Hardy's try. Daley had his back to the situation and had no idea what was going on when he tapped and went.

On the flip side, Bigger influenced the ref. As they stood while Farrell was speaking to his team, he can be heard saying 'could you tell me when time is back on please'. Ref signaled and before he blew the whistle, Biggar was lining up his kick.
The speed it all happened probably made it look worse.
 

salarchaser

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For those that want to suffer it step by step, this is probably the best analysis.


Somthing I picked up just looking at it again is the English huddle. Not looking at the Wales players.
(Think I was wrong saying May nowhere to be seen as he was on the other wing and was in position when the kick was made, so it was Watson caught out.)

Knowing bigger had the ball in hand, even if Farrell was talking I would expect the defence to be looking at their opposite number and breaking ranks if they saw the risk.

So in summary, mistake by the ref exacerbated by Welsh preparedness and lack of urgency / attention by England
A perfect storm.
 

Kype King

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Interesting to hear Nigel Owen’s opinion and I 100% agree with him. In my opinion those reffing decisions had a massive influence on the game. England looked dangerous with ball in hand and, if they had scored first, could well have pushed on - would also have affected Wales’s confidence. That said, I fully expected England to kick on and win the match once they’d clawed back to level terms. Wales (and Calum Sheedy in particular) deserve great credit for holding their nerve. I tend to agree with others who say that it was more a case of England losing the match rather than Wales winning it - and they deserved to lose for giving away so many daft penalties. If Wales go on to win the grand slam it will be one of the biggest surprises in the tournament’s history but good luck to them. I rather hope that England lose their remaining matches as it might force the changes that are so desperately needed, I.e getting rid of Farrell, Youngs, Daley and Billy V!
 

ozzyian

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It would have been very easy for Farrell to have given a full account of the 2 decisions in that interview, very easy! I'm no fan of the guy but he handled himself well there imo.

I always think that the reason players aren't switched on or alert enough is because they are being coached in strict and rigid ways. Maybe Jones has gone too far in the last couple of weeks demanding that players do a certain thing at a certain time otherwise there's trouble. 'We're losing because you are not doing what we are telling you to do' So when they are told to get into the little bonding huddle they do it and no one thinks 'lets just keep an eye open for unexpecteds or opportunities here'

10 years ago Matt Williams was doing this at Scotland. The players looked awful, forcing moves that weren't on, playing by rote. After a half time shouting match in the rooms that ultimately led to Williams departure from the job the Scottish boys came out and suddenly it was totally different, they were playing heads up and what they saw in front of them. They went on to beat Ireland I think it was in that game and you could tell something had happened at half time.

Couple of the players let it be known afterwards that they couldn't make sense of what was expected of them by Williams and they lived in fear of not transferring wednesdays run throughs into Saturdays game. When that's happening, you're still getting beat and you're told to get in the huddle you just do exactly what you're told. That and the English arrogance*














* calm down I'm joking :)
 
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