River Wear 2020

Grassy_Knollington

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I wish there were these kinds of studies on the North East Sea trout. They're as special as any salmon IMHO.
Thanks for posting that.

Are there any more recent studies which indicate the percentage of the salmon lost to North east England rivers?

Agree WRT ST but there is nothing AFAIK that attempted to assign net caught ST to rivers.

NEBody helpfully posted the link to the EA ‘consultation’ which provided an estimate of the proportion of Scottish Salmon in the different drift net district catches.

I am pretty sure that somewhere in the consultation documents I found an estimate of 2000 Salmon ‘saved’ from the Tyne through closing the drift nets - I will look through the stuff at some point to see if I remember correctly.

However, to the best of my knowledge, that study, from 1982 is the last attempt to gather primary data from the NE net fishery.

Pretty poor really and IMO all subsequent decisions have been made on the basis of emotion & supposition.

The limiting of the T&J net season will likely be good news for ST and, as I have said before, the ST runs to NE rivers really would benefit from less netting pressure.
 

Walleye

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Thanks. I've seen those reports before about net catches etc..its clear most of the salmon in the nets are Scottish salmon, it would be interesting to know where the sea trout would have gone.

In general, its a bit frustrating that salmon get all of the conservation attention and research dollars but the big sea trout unique to the north east England/ south east Scotland rivers are surely as worthy of attention, rather than being a pawn used to pacify salmon netsmen. That has always seemed strange to me.
 

NEbody

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Salmon get the “conservation“ because the government do what’s required to comply with international agreements, albeit reluctantly and several years later than desirable. Sea trout don’t have as much international interest. This recent stuff around stopping the beach nets is the first that’s explicitly addressed the effect of the nets on sea trout stocks.
 

country_est

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I havent got much idea on this but have seen a lot on other webforms ect regarding no such thing as a seatrout, but that they are sea going brown trout. With the additon of only triploid browns released does this have any effect on the ammount of fry thatvis in the waters as to how many go to sea.

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Walleye

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I havent got much idea on this but have seen a lot on other webforms ect regarding no such thing as a seatrout, but that they are sea going brown trout. With the additon of only triploid browns released does this have any effect on the ammount of fry thatvis in the waters as to how many go to sea.

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I've often thought about this but then why do sea migrating brown trout in the Wear travel thousands of miles on their migration whereas many on the West Coast hang around the coast and estuary and migrate to/from the river on an almost annual basis?
I know sea trout are sea run brown trout, but a brown trout in the river Wear must migrate a much greater distance and put on far more weight during its migration for some reason??
 

Grassy_Knollington

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I've often thought about this but then why do sea migrating brown trout in the Wear travel thousands of miles on their migration whereas many on the West Coast hang around the coast and estuary and migrate to/from the river on an almost annual basis?
I know sea trout are sea run brown trout, but a brown trout in the river Wear must migrate a much greater distance and put on far more weight during its migration for some reason??

That’s a good point. I think that the default answer of current opinion would probably be something to do with Genetics.

Surely hereditary instinct is one possible factor, but I wonder what influence ocean currents and the food supply have on the habits of NE Sea Trout.

2 currents meet off the coast of Northumbria, one heads south and the other cycles away from the coast anti clockwise.

The currents may well be one of the factors that push the fish down the East Coast. Off East Anglia, some of them turn back, while others pick up the currents that take them on to Dogger Bank. The route back straight across the N Sea is also with the currents.

Remember, there’s some big fish rivers on the West Coast too - or there used to be. The Dovey, Towy, Ogmore, and many others in West and South Wales, Test, Itchen on the South coast etc. Hope was a noted big fish venue , likewise Maree. I’d agree that overall there are a greater proportion of big maiden fish on the East Coast from Tweed down, but I think many of the better West Coast fisheries used to have their fair share of big ones too.
 

Andrew B

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Thanks. I've seen those reports before about net catches etc..its clear most of the salmon in the nets are Scottish salmon, it would be interesting to know where the sea trout would have gone.

In general, its a bit frustrating that salmon get all of the conservation attention and research dollars but the big sea trout unique to the north east England/ south east Scotland rivers are surely as worthy of attention, rather than being a pawn used to pacify salmon netsmen. That has always seemed strange to me.
Couldn’t agree more about those unique sea trout.
Don’t know if you’ve ever seen Iain Bains videos on YouTube? On th comments section of his last video I’ve been having a fascinating dialogue with someone who clearly knows his stuff about em.
Like yourself he said there’s hardly enough scientific reading about the two distinct races of sea trout from the Tweed, Aln to the Coquet and Tyne.
It’s worth having a look as he fishes the Coquet and was talking about the large sea going trout that Victorians called Bull Trout and how he’s had scale samples read that tells of a fish undergoing a crazy journey and spawning four times, once in the Yorkshire Esk and the other times in the Coquet.
There was a father and son that caught two double figure sea trout on the Esk this year that looked like those Bull Trout.
As sea trout stocks have plummeted on the west coast on my patch I find it shocking that my mum can suddenly afford to buy sea trout fillets from a well known fish van of good standing. I suspect it’s from Lancaster and these fillets are from 3lb plus fish.
 

Andrew B

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That’s a good point. I think that the default answer of current opinion would probably be something to do with Genetics.

Surely hereditary instinct is one possible factor, but I wonder what influence ocean currents and the food supply have on the habits of NE Sea Trout.

2 currents meet off the coast of Northumbria, one heads south and the other cycles away from the coast anti clockwise.

The currents may well be one of the factors that push the fish down the East Coast. Off East Anglia, some of them turn back, while others pick up the currents that take them on to Dogger Bank. The route back straight across the N Sea is also with the currents.

Remember, there’s some big fish rivers on the West Coast too - or there used to be. The Dovey, Towy, Ogmore, and many others in West and South Wales, Test, Itchen on the South coast etc. Hope was a noted big fish venue , likewise Maree. I’d agree that overall there are a greater proportion of big maiden fish on the East Coast from Tweed down, but I think many of the better West Coast fisheries used to have their fair share of big ones too.
Sea trout are just unfathomable at times. I know of two rivers only a matter of miles apart from each other in the Dwyfor and Glaslyn that has two distinct runs and races of fish?
Glaslyn starts real early and you can expect to catch in April, a three pounder would be a good fish on the Glaslyn.

The Dwyfor really starts in June and by the 2nd week in July all of the rivers big fish enter the river and run hard, fish in the teens of pounds like the Dovey are there albeit reluctant to take a fly for some reason.
Places like loch Maree are a travesty for being sold out to dirty salmon farms by greedy land owners.

I’ve fished a river for years that has been meddled with by flooding agencies, some of the man made created pools are now 30 yr old and yet the sea trout hate em even though they look pretty good to an angler. They did the same further down creating trap like pools and the fish just bomb through em now and only stop when they’ve reached those same natural pools they’ve been returning to for God knows how long.
My point being Sea Trout all have distinct populations and times and imo are so susceptible to change.
 

Walleye

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The bull trout are what interests me. I've heard stories of masses of bull trout in the Coquet, and culls taking place to try to improve the salmon runs. I suspect that many of the stories I've heard from older anglers on the Wear were about bull trout (which really are sea trout) in large numbers, catching 100+ every season. 8 know one guy who landed 17 in one night, three in double figures, and he is not prone to exaggeration.

With all things conservation, we only start measuring stuff when we think there is a problem. Then that become the baseline against which conservation is measured. Then along comes shifting baseline syndrome. My opinion.....until we start to focus on abundance over conservation(status quo) then it will be really difficult to maintain or improve stocks.
 

Andrew B

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The bull trout are what interests me. I've heard stories of masses of bull trout in the Coquet, and culls taking place to try to improve the salmon runs. I suspect that many of the stories I've heard from older anglers on the Wear were about bull trout (which really are sea trout) in large numbers, catching 100+ every season. 8 know one guy who landed 17 in one night, three in double figures, and he is not prone to exaggeration.

With all things conservation, we only start measuring stuff when we think there is a problem. Then that become the baseline against which conservation is measured. Then along comes shifting baseline syndrome. My opinion.....until we start to focus on abundance over conservation(status quo) then it will be really difficult to maintain or improve stocks.
Yeah 100% I’ve seen a few recently on the Wear thread. Best article I ever read was in a T&S from early 90s when the mag was full of interesting stuff as oppose to “How to catch” articles. You can tell it was an old article as he was talking about how most beats on the Tweed shut down for the summer months for salmon but there being opportunities for the sea trout angler. He mentioned two distinct races of fish, those earlier fish bound for the Till and a large race os sea trout that get caught as a by catch and in terms of power could be compared to the legendary Pacific steelhead?He wasn’t suggesting everyone go out and target these fish but was more on about how there’s a race of huge fish that go unnoticed and that the majority of fishermen don’t even know about?
Unlike the normal sea trout that clung to the east coast, these things were tracked off Holland and what would of been Dogger land.
Tweed nets have had thirty pounders lol.
Like you say any research is always little and late. I have a theory that like Char, which in the Arctic are essentially a sea fish that spawn in freshwater, I’ve wondered if all the glacial landlocked lake trout like Ferox are all descendants of Bull sea trout that got landlocked round about the time Dogger Land was flooded, which I’m sure is how the freshwater herrings like Vendace ect came to be?
I’ve never heard about them on the Spey? A river that constantly surprises me for its returns of large sea trout.
 

Andrew B

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I havent got much idea on this but have seen a lot on other webforms ect regarding no such thing as a seatrout, but that they are sea going brown trout. With the additon of only triploid browns released does this have any effect on the ammount of fry thatvis in the waters as to how many go to sea.

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Brown trout have the ability to go to sea through lack of food but the progeny of Sea trout do infact smolt as parr.
I’m guessing a river system would have the two things going on which is probably natures answer to any setbacks?

Personally I like to see those freak years when fish that left as smolts in April, return as herling in their thousands in October albeit I didn’t see it this year.
 

Bushwhacker

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So if i told you there were more salmon in the tees in the 80s would you not believe that as well?
The point i am trying to make is that imo there were better runs of fish all over the north east rivers then, than
there is now, how people can comment on what the rivers were like then, compared to now, when they never fished them,
beats me, you were not there you dont no! so if its not on your graphs and charts, all of us old timers are full of shite and telling lies.
Plus very few anglers took pictures of their fish back then as there were no mobile phones and cameras had to have their film developed and printed.
And you are right about the Tees.I can remember many reports of big fish to 30lbs and more.
 

greenlaner2009

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I've often thought about this but then why do sea migrating brown trout in the Wear travel thousands of miles on their migration whereas many on the West Coast hang around the coast and estuary and migrate to/from the river on an almost annual basis?
I know sea trout are sea run brown trout, but a brown trout in the river Wear must migrate a much greater distance and put on far more weight during its migration for some reason??
The wear sea trout take the long migration because 12 thousand years ago the wear, tyne, coquet and all the other rivers on our coast all fed into the Norwegian trench, Google Doggerland them images will explain everything.
 
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big albert

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Would that be the better fly life, like we see on the Tees? Better trout & grayling fishing? Along with better course fishing?

The crayfish keep the otters & mink busy too.


Crawfish won't affect fly of which are millions fish if were in the same numbers they wouldn't make an impact
 

greenlaner2009

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The migration destination was probably locked into the sea trout genetics all them years ago and as that lowland gradually became the north sea fish had to adapt migration patterns to todays ie leave the river head south to east anglia then cross to the Netherlands then up toward Denmark.
 

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Lgraydonflyfishing

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Couldn’t agree more about those unique sea trout.
Don’t know if you’ve ever seen Iain Bains videos on YouTube? On th comments section of his last video I’ve been having a fascinating dialogue with someone who clearly knows his stuff about em.
Like yourself he said there’s hardly enough scientific reading about the two distinct races of sea trout from the Tweed, Aln to the Coquet and Tyne.
It’s worth having a look as he fishes the Coquet and was talking about the large sea going trout that Victorians called Bull Trout and how he’s had scale samples read that tells of a fish undergoing a crazy journey and spawning four times, once in the Yorkshire Esk and the other times in the Coquet.
There was a father and son that caught two double figure sea trout on the Esk this year that looked like those Bull Trout.
As sea trout stocks have plummeted on the west coast on my patch I find it shocking that my mum can suddenly afford to buy sea trout fillets from a well known fish van of good standing. I suspect it’s from Lancaster and these fillets are from 3lb plus fish.
Read youre comments on ians video bull trout " a large sea trout what enters late and is already coloured"......I caught this on the wear on the 10th of October, est 14lbs+ what you think?
 

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Andrew B

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Read youre comments on ians video bull trout " a large sea trout what enters late and is already coloured"......I caught this on the wear on the 10th of October, est 14lbs+ what you think?
Wow the tail on that thing. If I had to guess I would say Bull trout as there’s been a few this size on the Wear caught in Sep/ October. Given the Wear has its share of night time anglers I don’t recall many bright silver June/July sea trout this size?
 

Lgraydonflyfishing

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Wow the tail on that thing. If I had to guess I would say Bull trout as there’s been a few this size on the Wear caught in Sep/ October. Given the Wear has its share of night time anglers I don’t recall many bright silver June/July sea trout this size?
Very powerful fish and yes early October, I'd never even heard of bull trout before until you were talking about it
 

Bushwhacker

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I,v seen many of what we call Bull trout over the years.As early as mid June and having big kypes and being very coloured.
Some of the biggest Seatrout enter the river early in the year around early May and these are silver bars.My last big one (the one in my profile pic)was caught on the 13th of May.So a coloured back end Seatrout can not always be classed as a Bull trout.
 

Andrew B

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I,v seen many of what we call Bull trout over the years.As early as mid June and having big kypes and being very coloured.
Some of the biggest Seatrout enter the river early in the year around early May and these are silver bars.My last big one (the one in my profile pic)was caught on the 13th of May.So a coloured back end Seatrout can not always be classed as a Bull trout.
Wow that’s an absolute beautiful fish.
 

Lgraydonflyfishing

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I,v seen many of what we call Bull trout over the years.As early as mid June and having big kypes and being very coloured.
Some of the biggest Seatrout enter the river early in the year around early May and these are silver bars.My last big one (the one in my profile pic)was caught on the 13th of May.So a coloured back end Seatrout can not always be classed as a Bull trout.
Looks a stonker davey what did it weigh?
 
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