Pheasant shooting curtailed

Wafty Cranker

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I think the majority of shoots where local working class boys chip in and put down some birds (1000-2000) and run it more like a syndicate is a great thing and i used to love going to one locally with a friend. The shoot i used to attend was excellent and most guns got a few birds every time out and all the birds were taken for eating by the beaters and the guns.. What is giving the shooters a bad image IMHO is the big estates putting down tens of thousands of birds and then selling these driven days for big bucks. We all know that they charge more for the more birds killled by the guns. What you are left with is guns who are very rich having the ability to pay silly money and shoot a crazy amount of birds that day. This would be like overstocking a trout fishery then chapping all you catch then just tipping them in a bucket for sishery owner to get rid of them when you leave. This does not sit right with me.

I have never liked putting down ducks on ponds then having a go at them when they lift and circle the pond. I have no issue with shooting wild duck and geese and quite enjoy a day out watching this.

Like everything nowadays supply and demand has resulted in a product being available if someone is looking for that product and willing to pay big money for it. I also think Shooters and fishers should stick together and protect the country way of life as the Antis are getting louder and becoming more succesful in getting their voices heard in high places.
Personally i think that some of the bags shot now are disgusting, the size of the bags are obscene and do not do the shooting fraternity any favours. 1000 birds in a day, not necessary and not sporting in my opinion. I shot with a farmer a couple of years ago on a 200 bird day, he told me of a recent day he had of 1100 plus birds shot in a day, i told him i did not agreee with it and this would be the death nell of shooting. His answer to me was "Well i can afford it".

WTF!!

Won't be shooting with him again:rolleyes:
 

Safranfoer

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I'm not massively convinced the human hunting instinct angle really bears much scrutiny. Many of what could similarly be described as biological instincts are legislated against or societally frowned upon. And not everyone has the hunting drive - it's not a universally relatable truth.

However, even were it true, it still wouldn't unite the community, as it opens the door for 1200 bird+ bags. Why not? It's part of our natural instinct and right to kill, after all...

Hunting as an age-old essential human necessity, all good. Taking satisfaction in honing the skills required to undertake this requirement accurately and efficiently - fine.

These nuances get lost though and it can easily come across as the way some people relax and have fun at the weekend is to go out and kill some animals. That's quite a difficult pill for many people to swallow, not just the antis - and whoever observed that social media perpetuates the misconception is bang on. The trophy bag shots and lawns festooned with dead rabbits get taken out of the context of the activity and just lumped in with the shots of incredibly wealthy people with their foot on a dead lion's head. The same seemingly senseless pride in death, and disrespect for the quarry, comes across in all of them. The 'why' part of the story isn't told - pest control, for food, culling, disease... The response to this forever and a day seems to be, it's just because ignorant townies don't understand. That never seems to translate into, so I need to inspiringly educate them, rather than cling tighter to my gun and sneer.
 

Loxie

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I've nothing at all against hunting. It should continue and thrive as a key part of our culture and history. It's very important.

I just have a problem with target shooting using driven birds. It's not hunting imo.

This is also why the antis are focusing on driven shoots. They know it's the easiest win. It's exactly why they went for fox hunting and made progress - some of the methods used don't sit with the British idea of "fair play" associated with most hunting and shooting activities.

They won't get far with any other form of hunting, including fishing.

Oh, and it's not a class war, or a rural / urban thing. Continue thinking that if you like but while you complain about that, target shooting with driven birds will get licensed then banned.

What is it about driven shooting you don't like?
 

Loxie

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I'm not massively convinced the human hunting instinct angle really bears much scrutiny. Many of what could similarly be described as biological instincts are legislated against or societally frowned upon. And not everyone has the hunting drive - it's not a universally relatable truth.

However, even were it true, it still wouldn't unite the community, as it opens the door for 1200 bird+ bags. Why not? It's part of our natural instinct and right to kill, after all...

Hunting as an age-old essential human necessity, all good. Taking satisfaction in honing the skills required to undertake this requirement accurately and efficiently - fine.

These nuances get lost though and it can easily come across as the way some people relax and have fun at the weekend is to go out and kill some animals. That's quite a difficult pill for many people to swallow, not just the antis - and whoever observed that social media perpetuates the misconception is bang on. The trophy bag shots and lawns festooned with dead rabbits get taken out of the context of the activity and just lumped in with the shots of incredibly wealthy people with their foot on a dead lion's head. The same seemingly senseless pride in death, and disrespect for the quarry, comes across in all of them. The 'why' part of the story isn't told - pest control, for food, culling, disease... The response to this forever and a day seems to be, it's just because ignorant townies don't understand. That never seems to translate into, so I need to inspiringly educate them, rather than cling tighter to my gun and sneer.

While I get your point I think you are building a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone sneers and I think the argument in favour of shooting is very well made by organisations like GWCT and BASC but I think they actually get virtually no media time to get the message out whereas the antis arguments are full of bigotry and lies but they are allowed massive national coverage virtually unchallenged.

Oh and by the way the instinct to hunt is completely universal to mankind, no human would be alive today if their ancestors were not all good hunters it's just that many people try to pretend to themselves it isn't there, express it through shopping or other gathering behaviours or haven't yet had the chance to experience circumstances that would allow them to realise it. Some people feel shame about it as they have been programmed to think it's wrong and this guilt and shame can lead to violent opposition and a futile attempt to expunge it from the planet.

I'm always amazed at people like Packham who delight in watching a pack of wild dogs tearing a wildebeest apart causing frankly horrific suffering but think I should be jailed because I enjoy shooting birds humanely and eating them. Who is the weirdo? Are humans of part of the planet's ecosystem? Why should we alone be told expressing our perfectly natural desire to hunt is wrong but if a chimpanzee wants to hunt monkeys that's ok because it's nature? It's really just rank hypocrisy and one of the many pathetic excuses used to cover the real motivation behind anti fieldsports activism which is a hatred of people who do things they don't want to do and childish control freakery in wanting to ban it.
 

Safranfoer

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While I get your point I think you are building a bit of a straw man. I don't think anyone sneers and I think the argument in favour of shooting is very well made by organisations like GWCT and BASC but I think they actually get virtually no media time to get the message out whereas the antis arguments are full of bigotry and lies but they are allowed massive national coverage virtually unchallenged.

Oh and by the way the instinct to hunt is completely universal to mankind, no human would be alive today if their ancestors were not all good hunters it's just that many people try to pretend to themselves it isn't there, express it through shopping or other gathering behaviours or haven't yet had the chance to experience circumstances that would allow them to realise it. Some people feel shame about it as they have been programmed to think it's wrong and this guilt and shame can lead to violent opposition and a futile attempt to expunge it from the planet.

I'm always amazed at people like Packham who delight in watching a pack of wild dogs tearing a wildebeest apart causing frankly horrific suffering but think I should be jailed because I enjoy shooting birds humanely and eating them. Who is the weirdo? Are humans of part of the planet's ecosystem? Why should we alone be told expressing our perfectly natural desire to hunt is wrong but if a chimpanzee wants to hunt monkeys that's ok because it's nature? It's really just rank hypocrisy and one of the many pathetic excuses used to cover the real motivation behind anti fieldsports activism which is a hatred of people who do things they don't want to do and childish control freakery in wanting to ban it.

I'm not building a straw man. You might be right when you say that activities like shopping are evidence of hunting instinct - but I didn't recognise that. Most people wouldn't recognise that.

It's MUCH easier to build a narrative based on necessity - which is universally understood and accepted - than instinct, which you have to explain, and which makes people confront qualities in themselves they might not like and might be denying.

Because again, you're right, people have been programmed to think that killing is wrong. And it's hardwired programming. So to tell them not just that it's right, but that it's OK to find it FUN, you have to overcome a whole lifetime of conditioning and completely reset their moral code. Which is a WAY more difficult comms job, and will take ages, and you'll have lost all your rights in the meantime.

You'll persuade more people faster by finding the universal human truth that everyone recognises: meat eaters need food to eat, and man has always hunted.

In your examples, wild dogs kill wildebeest to eat. We accept the savagery of the kill because we feel they know no better. (And because no one wants wild dogs running around armed with guns. It's cool, guys. Use your teeth...) And we assign moral judgement to animals that kill for fun, too - no one celebrates the chimps killing the monkeys, or the dolphins that have been seen to kill for fun. And people LOVE chimps and dolphins, but still - because they break our moral code, it's frowned upon. And you'd have a point that we shouldn't assign human moral frameworks to animals - but then you're back to having to de-programme people's entire moral code. You'd have to point me to example of BASC comms that achieve that.

If some people hate field sports, it's not because it's something THEY don't want to do. It's because they feel it's morally unjustifiable. You need to give a justification that chimes with people's morals, rather than fights them: it's essential.

Well. That's what I'd do if I was briefed to.
 

Grassy_Knollington

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All the driven shoots I’ve been to are small affairs, run by syndicates, on land they rent from farmers. On my dad’s one, a 60 bird day every 2 weeks between 16 - 20 guns is about average, over 100 is a very good day. All the birds are taken or given away for food.

I know it’s not all like that but that is the impression that the likes of CP would like to give.

I’m kind of with the prat featured in T&S who is behind (One of) the anti Salmon farming campaigns. Maybe leave some of the logic at the door, fight emotion with emotion and drown them out with virtue signalling nonsense; it certainly seems to be the antis MO. Not sure I like the idea but it certainly seems to be the way these things work.

Want to eat a Nandos while shaking your head at the industrialised killing of birds? No problem because we can show you good honest working class folk enjoying sustainable foraging with guns where every bird has a fair chance of escaping :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:.
 

Safranfoer

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All the driven shoots I’ve been to are small affairs, run by syndicates, on land they rent from farmers. On my dad’s one, a 60 bird day every 2 weeks between 16 - 20 guns is about average, over 100 is a very good day. All the birds are taken or given away for food.

I know it’s not all like that but that is the impression that the likes of CP would like to give.

I’m kind of with the prat featured in T&S who is behind (One of) the anti Salmon farming campaigns. Maybe leave some of the logic at the door, fight emotion with emotion and drown them out with virtue signalling nonsense; it certainly seems to be the antis MO. Not sure I like the idea but it certainly seems to be the way these things work.

Want to eat a Nandos while shaking your head at the industrialised killing of birds? No problem because we can show you good honest working class folk enjoying sustainable foraging with guns where every bird has a fair chance of escaping :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:.
It's not virtue signalling nonsense. It's understanding your audience and speaking to them in a way you understand.

But by calling it virtue signalling nonsense, you're doing that sneering thing again. (Not you personally. Just. If you hold your audience in contempt, they can smell it a mile off. You have to have empathy.)
 

Loxie

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I'm not building a straw man. You might be right when you say that activities like shopping are evidence of hunting instinct - but I didn't recognise that. Most people wouldn't recognise that.

It's MUCH easier to build a narrative based on necessity - which is universally understood and accepted - than instinct, which you have to explain, and which makes people confront qualities in themselves they might not like and might be denying.

Because again, you're right, people have been programmed to think that killing is wrong. And it's hardwired programming. So to tell them not just that it's right, but that it's OK to find it FUN, you have to overcome a whole lifetime of conditioning and completely reset their moral code. Which is a WAY more difficult comms job, and will take ages, and you'll have lost all your rights in the meantime.

You'll persuade more people faster by finding the universal human truth that everyone recognises: meat eaters need food to eat, and man has always hunted.

In your examples, wild dogs kill wildebeest to eat. We accept the savagery of the kill because we feel they know no better. (And because no one wants wild dogs running around armed with guns. It's cool, guys. Use your teeth...) And we assign moral judgement to animals that kill for fun, too - no one celebrates the chimps killing the monkeys, or the dolphins that have been seen to kill for fun. And people LOVE chimps and dolphins, but still - because they break our moral code, it's frowned upon. And you'd have a point that we shouldn't assign human moral frameworks to animals - but then you're back to having to de-programme people's entire moral code. You'd have to point me to example of BASC comms that achieve that.

If some people hate field sports, it's not because it's something THEY don't want to do. It's because they feel it's morally unjustifiable. You need to give a justification that chimes with people's morals, rather than fights them: it's essential.

Well. That's what I'd do if I was briefed to.

I get that but I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone merely trying to explain. If anyone actually wants to know about all the the huge benefits of fieldsports have a look at the GWCT, you can get all the positive messages any one could ever need.

People hate fieldsports for a variety of reasons but they want to ban them because they hate the people who take part in them. That's really my point.
 

Safranfoer

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I get that but I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone merely trying to explain. If anyone actually wants to know about all the the huge benefits of fieldsports have a look at the GWCT, you can get all the positive messages any one could ever need.

People hate fieldsports for a variety of reasons but they want to ban them because they hate the people who take part in them. That's really my point.
I think I'd disagree with why some people hate the people - I think it's mostly because they see an alien moral code, not a class thing, though some will have that view - but otherwise all fair points.
 

seeking

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...Oh and by the way the instinct to hunt is completely universal to mankind, no human would be alive today if their ancestors were not all good hunters it's just that many people try to pretend to themselves it isn't there, express it through shopping or other gathering behaviours or haven't yet had the chance to experience circumstances that would allow them to realise it. Some people feel shame about it as they have been programmed to think it's wrong and this guilt and shame can lead to violent opposition and a futile attempt to expunge it from the planet...

Good point. But not just their ancestors.

To be fair, it's ok for the middle class tw@ttering classes to pontificate about how awful hunting is. And the very same folk using CV19 by stealth to stop folk eating bush meat, or even, horror of horrors using "AGW" to try and enforce vegetarianism etc..

But for the vast majority of the world's folk (admittedly getting smaller year by year) hunting is still pretty much still universal.

: phew :

Or it was last time I checked (about 2 hours ago! - cane rat goulash tonight, ? )
 

Loxie

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I think I'd disagree with why some people hate the people - I think it's mostly because they see an alien moral code, not a class thing, though some will have that view - but otherwise all fair points.

Morals are always pretty flexible. Only about 1 in a million people in this country are prepared to undergo any real inconvenience to prevent animals suffering or dying. Moral code usual equals stuff I can live without doing and therefore feel free to criticise.
 

Loxie

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Good point. But not just their ancestors.

To be fair, it's ok for the middle class tw@ttering classes to pontificate about how awful hunting is. And the very same folk using CV19 by stealth to stop folk eating bush meat, or even, horror of horrors using "AGW" to try and enforce vegetarianism etc..

But for the vast majority of the world's folk (admittedly getting smaller year by year) hunting is still pretty much still universal.

: phew :

Or it was last time I checked (about 2 hours ago! - cane rat goulash tonight, ? )

Pigeon and venison for me tonight. I can't help but feel I've got the better deal but I've never eaten a cane rat so I can't be sure!
 

seeking

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Pigeon and venison for me tonight. I can't help but feel I've got the better deal but I've never eaten a cane rat so I can't be sure!

:D

Nope. It's actually really nice. Totally wild tasty, sustainable organic treats, can't beat them can you?

Cane rats are a bit dry, but full of flavour (a bit too much in the hind parts, must be a scent gland in there!) They have really interesting feet, pads almost - lots of gelatine in there which helps my arthritis)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_rat (just posting that as I love the pic of one)

Makes a pleasant change from the more normal tilapia, guinea fowl and poulet africaine, but I draw the line at cracking the brain out with my teeth nowadays!
 
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Handel

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:D

Nope. It's actually really nice. Totally wild tasty, sustainable organic treats, can't beat them can you?

Cane rats are a bit dry, but full of flavour (a bit too much in the hind parts, must be a scent gland in there!) They have really interesting feet, pads almost - lots of gelatine in there which helps my arthritis)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_rat (just posting that as I love the pic of one)

Makes a pleasant change from the more normal tilapia, guinea fowl and poulet africaine, but I draw the line at cracking the brain out with my teeth nowadays!
I take it your current location is not Yorkshire? I am rather fond of tilapia though how polluted is the lake now?
 

seeking

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I take it your current location is not Yorkshire? I am rather fond of tilapia though how polluted is the lake now?

No, but I'm teaching the locals "Ecky Thump"!

Pretty fortunate here in that the lake and rivers seem fine. Not much baseline chem/geochem data mind!

Cheque is in the post though, IMHO: Much of the native forest has been destroyed for vegetarians and cash crops (careful use of words, true but not BBC PC, they'd love it if the forest were Brazillian and being logged for beef). Lots of cotton, cashew, coffee, cocoa, shea (for the butter and soap) etc. Deforestation faster than you can shake a stick...

Organic, MRIA: wanton application of pesticides, dumped by BigChem companies on an unsuspecting end user...

Hmm, come to think about it maybe I should think twice next time I catch tilapia/bream (as they call 'em 'ere), over the weekend, will post any succeses...
 

Safranfoer

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Morals are always pretty flexible. Only about 1 in a million people in this country are prepared to undergo any real inconvenience to prevent animals suffering or dying. Moral code usual equals stuff I can live without doing and therefore feel free to criticise.
Agree wholeheartedly. But people are complicated and there isn’t one universal moral code anyway. Anyone claiming the moral high ground on any issue is therefore destined to have holes in their thinking relative to the next man’s moral code - battery-farmed-chicken-eating-anti and catch-and-release-fishing-pro alike. You’re coming at the issue believing you are right. So are they. If you can’t understand where they’re coming from and engage on their level, no minds will ever change. Is all.
 

Loxie

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Agree wholeheartedly. But people are complicated and there isn’t one universal moral code anyway. Anyone claiming the moral high ground on any issue is therefore destined to have holes in their thinking relative to the next man’s moral code - battery-farmed-chicken-eating-anti and catch-and-release-fishing-pro alike. You’re coming at the issue believing you are right. So are they. If you can’t understand where they’re coming from and engage on their level, no minds will ever change. Is all.

You can never change the minds of people who have already made theirs up. I'm fully prepared to debate any one about fieldsports on any level with total honesty. I have never met an anti who would reciprocate. Some people are just too comfortable with their prejudices to ever let them be challenged.
 

seeking

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...Hmm, come to think about it maybe I should think twice next time I catch tilapia/bream (as they call 'em 'ere), over the weekend, will post any succeses...
Well I did promise a pic for you Handel. Unfortunately I was only catching small stuff (mind it is a #1 longshank GRHE and me belly is enormous).

I think this is a juenile Nembwe. Honestly I've never ever seen one so small. Usually they are massive (and really tasty). I hope it grows up by the time I'm back.

DSC_3746.JPG
 

Loxie

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I'm afraid this is inevitable. The SG policy on grouse is driven by bigotry and ideology. They have ignored the scientific advice of their own advisors to pursue a political goal. This is first step and a serious blow to rural Scotland and possibly an even bigger blow for conservation.
 

mows

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If this so serious, why have the vast majority of good estates turned the other way for years and let the bad estates slowly put the pegs in for this change.
 
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