Patagonia (the company) supports anti's!

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Loxie

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Genuine question, I really don't know the answer....
Is this a legal trap?
View attachment 55854
It's not a trap. It's a potential trap site for trapping rats, stoats and weasels but the actual trap is missing from what I can see. The green cover is to stop birds being accidentally trapped and the black guards are to ensure larger mammals such as Otters or Cats etc cannot get in. If it had a trap it would not only be legal but best practice too.
 

Loxie

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Not the science I’ve seen recently. How can burning moor not dry out the ground - doesn’t make sense ?
Show us your science. What did you mean by dry out the ground?
 

Maggy

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Show us your science. What did you mean by dry out the ground?
Fire = heat = drying agent. It’s not something I’d choose to argue about but the documentary made much sense. It seems to me that moorland should be left to do it’s own thing. Maybe we’d look more like Norway then. But I don’t shoot or own any.

I’m told Norwegians shoot wild ground on a walked-up basis, using a couple of dogs. If I was to shoot, that sounds like more fun than driven-shooting.
 
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Wee-Eck

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Science can be used to prove almost anything you want it to. As a practical example of stopping muirburn. SNH stopped it on the moors they own up in Sutherland allowing the heather to just grow and get old and woody. A couple of years ago there was a wildfire on the moor whether natural or malicious nobody knows but because of the amount of old heather present the fire burned very hot. Much hotter than a normal muirburn. This in turn set fire to the underlying peat and the fire went on for weeks until nature intervened and heavy prolonged rain put it out. No science there just a practical observation.
 

sammyc

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Fire = heat = drying agent. It’s not something I’d choose to argue about but the documentary made much sense. It seems to me that moorland should be left to do it’s own thing. Maybe we’d look more like Norway then. But I don’t shoot or own any.

I’m told Norwegians shoot wild ground on a walked-up basis, using a couple of dogs. If I was to shoot, that sounds like more fun than driven-shooting.
Controlled heather burning, or muirburn, is undertaken over a small area and is known as a ‘cool burn’, not damaging any of the underlying blanket bog or sphagnum moss. Indeed, by removing the cover of old heather it allows the sphagnum moss to regenerate and remain boggy, rather than being dried by a heavy covering of vegetation. And then there’s a risk of wildfire that Wee-Eck highlights on moorland that is left unburnt.

Anecdotally, I have walked behind a burn and picked up moss and it’s been cold and retained as much water as sponge soaked in a bath. An unscientific, but nonetheless compelling, demonstration of the coolness of controlled burning can be seen here:

If you have the inclination, here is a peer reviewed document that analyses the scientific studies on heather burning from 2013-2020, including 4 reports that cover most of the issues mentioned such as the contribution to biodiversity gain through burning, carbon emission/sequestration and the affect on water. https://www.countryside-alliance.or...lue-of/Peatland-Protection-v8A.pdf?lang=en-GB

While long, the ‘key findings’ bullet points at the start are helpful.

And all of this really is to say that Patagonia, a company I support, is sadly promoting and funding a group hell bent on banning shooting (and all fieldsports), that undertake illegal activity, and that have links to - and were possibly founded by - Luke Steele, a man with a criminal conviction for harrassment of scientists working on life saving remedies but tested some of these on mice as part of their research. It’s an embarassment for the company and they should be ashamed.
 

Maggy

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Controlled heather burning, or muirburn, is undertaken over a small area and is known as a ‘cool burn’, not damaging any of the underlying blanket bog or sphagnum moss. Indeed, by removing the cover of old heather it allows the sphagnum moss to regenerate and remain boggy, rather than being dried by a heavy covering of vegetation. And then there’s a risk of wildfire that Wee-Eck highlights on moorland that is left unburnt.

Anecdotally, I have walked behind a burn and picked up moss and it’s been cold and retained as much water as sponge soaked in a bath. An unscientific, but nonetheless compelling, demonstration of the coolness of controlled burning can be seen here:

If you have the inclination, here is a peer reviewed document that analyses the scientific studies on heather burning from 2013-2020, including 4 reports that cover most of the issues mentioned such as the contribution to biodiversity gain through burning, carbon emission/sequestration and the affect on water. https://www.countryside-alliance.or...lue-of/Peatland-Protection-v8A.pdf?lang=en-GB

While long, the ‘key findings’ bullet points at the start are helpful.

And all of this really is to say that Patagonia, a company I support, is sadly promoting and funding a group hell bent on banning shooting (and all fieldsports), that undertake illegal activity, and that have links to - and were possibly founded by - Luke Steele, a man with a criminal conviction for harrassment of scientists working on life saving remedies but tested some of these on mice as part of their research. It’s an embarassment for the company and they should be ashamed.
That’s kind of you, thanks. It’s not really a priority for me. I’ve seen heather burning and the arguments for grouse rearing make sense. I’ve even missed a day‘s salmon fishing on a top beat to help a friend out with his driven grouse shoot. It’s not for me, Norwegian system - yes.
 

Hoddom

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GWCT are the world leaders in biodiversity and ecosystem research of upland habitats.
I would contest they are world leaders with the named researchers. It is really very good that they are publishing peer reviewed work - even though its not appearing in the top quality journals unfortunately. Interesting where their funds do and don't come from too.

Does anyone have any papers on the biodiversity effects (I couldn't find anything in the GWCT list that was comprehensive of biodiversity or ecosystems and their services - plenty on hares, hen harriers and moss plus improvements in C sequestration (which is v cool!). I was hoping IPBES would have the needful - not no chance! It would be interesting to learn.
 

Loxie

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I would contest they are world leaders with the named researchers. It is really very good that they are publishing peer reviewed work - even though its not appearing in the top quality journals unfortunately. Interesting where their funds do and don't come from too.

Does anyone have any papers on the biodiversity effects (I couldn't find anything in the GWCT list that was comprehensive of biodiversity or ecosystems and their services - plenty on hares, hen harriers and moss plus improvements in C sequestration (which is v cool!). I was hoping IPBES would have the needful - not no chance! It would be interesting to learn.
There was a German study on biodiversity done a couple of years ago. I don't have links but it should be online somewhere.
 

Loxie

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That’s kind of you, thanks. It’s not really a priority for me. I’ve seen heather burning and the arguments for grouse rearing make sense. I’ve even missed a day‘s salmon fishing on a top beat to help a friend out with his driven grouse shoot. It’s not for me, Norwegian system - yes.
There are no red grouse in Norway!
 

Loxie

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Fire = heat = drying agent. It’s not something I’d choose to argue about but the documentary made much sense. It seems to me that moorland should be left to do it’s own thing. Maybe we’d look more like Norway then. But I don’t shoot or own any.

I’m told Norwegians shoot wild ground on a walked-up basis, using a couple of dogs. If I was to shoot, that sounds like more fun than driven-shooting.
Walked up shooting is also very common over here for grouse and other game.
 

Hoddom

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There was a German study on biodiversity done a couple of years ago. I don't have links but it should be online somewhere.
Would be cool to find it.

The fires do, of course, dry out the ground initially. However, from 3 to about 10 years Sphagnum growth is faster than pre burn and hence, overtime the ground becomes wetter. It becomes problematic if it is reburned too soon of course - plus the sequestration can be diminished which basically makes it pointless on a sub century scale.
 

Loxie

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Would be cool to find it.

The fires do, of course, dry out the ground initially. However, from 3 to about 10 years Sphagnum growth is faster than pre burn and hence, overtime the ground becomes wetter. It becomes problematic if it is reburned too soon of course - plus the sequestration can be diminished which basically makes it pointless on a sub century scale.
The point is that spagnum moss isn't burnt. The normal burn cycle is 10 years.
 

Loxie

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Dr Daniel Hoffman, I think was the scientist involved.
 

Walleye

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I have a couple of questions on stuff I don't understand....

Moors are burned and drained to favour new heather growth. Heather doesn't prosper in what I would consider bog land. The moors I see are almost entirely dominated by heather, aside from where there is bog land where the flora is much more diverse. The burning and draining is done to favour the grouse and increase grouse production.
Have any studies been done over a longer time frame, for example from before the moors were so intensively drained and managed comparing them to now? Is the science suffering from shielding baseline syndrome It's? It's obvious to me that a man made environment such as grouse moors will obviously be a fire hazard in the short term if management suddenly stopped, because without the management the moors wouldn't be heather dominated, or biodiversity might change or even be worse for a period of decades so short term studies really mean nothing unless I'm missing something. Happy to discuss and be corrected here.
 

Maggy

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I have a couple of questions on stuff I don't understand....

Moors are burned and drained to favour new heather growth. Heather doesn't prosper in what I would consider bog land. The moors I see are almost entirely dominated by heather, aside from where there is bog land where the flora is much more diverse. The burning and draining is done to favour the grouse and increase grouse production.
Have any studies been done over a longer time frame, for example from before the moors were so intensively drained and managed comparing them to now? Is the science suffering from shielding baseline syndrome It's? It's obvious to me that a man made environment such as grouse moors will obviously be a fire hazard in the short term if management suddenly stopped, because without the management the moors wouldn't be heather dominated, or biodiversity might change or even be worse for a period of decades so short term studies really mean nothing unless I'm missing something. Happy to discuss and be corrected here.
I‘m afraid driven grouse it’s a sick inheritance from the past IMO. Only employment benefits come anyway near justification. Mind I’m a Macdonald. IE driven off the land and replaced by sheep and deer after the rebellion. It still hurts.
 
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Loxie

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I have a couple of questions on stuff I don't understand....

Moors are burned and drained to favour new heather growth. Heather doesn't prosper in what I would consider bog land. The moors I see are almost entirely dominated by heather, aside from where there is bog land where the flora is much more diverse. The burning and draining is done to favour the grouse and increase grouse production.
Have any studies been done over a longer time frame, for example from before the moors were so intensively drained and managed comparing them to now? Is the science suffering from shielding baseline syndrome It's? It's obvious to me that a man made environment such as grouse moors will obviously be a fire hazard in the short term if management suddenly stopped, because without the management the moors wouldn't be heather dominated, or biodiversity might change or even be worse for a period of decades so short term studies really mean nothing unless I'm missing something. Happy to discuss and be corrected here.
No they aren't drained. Quite the opposite in fact on land managed for grouse there has been an ongoing policy of blocking drains and trying to create wetter boggier ground. It's not about making more heather it's about creating a patchwork of habitat which is why there is so much biodiversity. Heather restoration is about getting rid of bracken and regenerating moorland.
 

Marcus c

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The hunting and fishing community need to stick together as a whole-anglers,shooters etc. have had _and will always have disputes amongst ourselves.Our lifestyles are more threatened now than they ever were.Grouse shooting is the START with their agenda but certainly not the end result.These people have made it blatantly clear that they will not stop until ALL blood sports are abolished. Any angler or hunter who criticizes his fellow mans pastime is giving ammunition to these extremists. It's time to put our differences aside and watch the big picture.
 

greenlaner2009

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The hunting and fishing community need to stick together as a whole-anglers,shooters etc. have had _and will always have disputes amongst ourselves.Our lifestyles are more threatened now than they ever were.Grouse shooting is the START with their agenda but certainly not the end result.These people have made it blatantly clear that they will not stop until ALL blood sports are abolished. Any angler or hunter who criticizes his fellow mans pastime is giving ammunition to these extremists. It's time to put our differences aside and watch the big picture.
I personally think I would like too see all moorland taken by compulsory purchase and rewilded, the sooner grouse shooting is confined to history the better.
 

westie4566

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The hunting and fishing community need to stick together as a whole-anglers,shooters etc. have had _and will always have disputes amongst ourselves.Our lifestyles are more threatened now than they ever were.Grouse shooting is the START with their agenda but certainly not the end result.These people have made it blatantly clear that they will not stop until ALL blood sports are abolished. Any angler or hunter who criticizes his fellow mans pastime is giving ammunition to these extremists. It's time to put our differences aside and watch the big picture.
I could not agree more. Two of our co-respondants on this thread should take note of this too. Maggy and Greenlaner.

We are all fieldsports enthusiasts on here. One side of our sport, the shooting one, is coming under extreme threat at the hands of anti's at the moment.

Unless we as fishers support them. then the anti's will win the day. Once that is done, who do you think they're coming after next? Us. Especially now as we appear to treat salmon as 'playthings'.

I know we can appear to justify what we do, that won't make one iota of a difference when the anti's decide we're the next target.

Now. more than ever, we need to be sticking together to protect our ways and our love of the countryside, whether by rod or gun.
 

westie4566

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Just a quick question, where do you do your salmon fishing?
Thanks for that Elibank...was going to ask that in my reply to a member who never seems to have posted anything really supporting fishing..but decided I was going to be polite...lol (y)
 

Maggy

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I could not agree more. Two of our co-respondants on this thread should take note of this too. Maggy and Greenlaner.

We are all fieldsports enthusiasts on here. One side of our sport, the shooting one, is coming under extreme threat at the hands of anti's at the moment.

Unless we as fishers support them. then the anti's will win the day. Once that is done, who do you think they're coming after next? Us. Especially now as we appear to treat salmon as 'playthings'.

I know we can appear to justify what we do, that won't make one iota of a difference when the anti's decide we're the next target.

Now. more than ever, we need to be sticking together to protect our ways and our love of the countryside, whether by rod or gun.
Can you point out where I’m anti-shooting please pre-lecture ?

Nor can I accept your statement in para 2. Sorry. Respect, Respect
 
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