Patagonia (the company) supports anti's!

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bankwheel

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I will have trawl later. I do a fair bit of bailiff work. We know what goes on. But gathering evidence, catching punters, let alone proving anything is incredibly difficult. Getting a case together against "monitors" is no different.
Quite frankly, I am astonished any angler is naive enough to be taken in by any of thoe activists, who are no friends of any country sport.
RF, sorry I'm not having a go and I'm not naive, but because a group of people want stop animal cruelty does not mean that they are anti's, the first thread stated that Patagonia were giving finial support to anti shooting radicals, this statement is simply not true. No where does it mention that Patagonia want to ban shooting. I just think that until MM are proven to be an anti shooting brigade then we shouldn't just jump to conclussions.
 

Safranfoer

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Nice one Saffy. You're trying to turn this one round on me. I'm saying that MM are not an unbiased or prejudiced group. You said that they were made that way by current practices. I replied by saying that you sounded like the Trump diehards.

I'm not trying to defend Trump or criminal activities by keepers.

I wouldn't trust MM to collect evidence of illegal activity any more than I'd trust on of Trump's supporters to provide "evidence" of voting fraud.
I wasn’t trying to turn it on you. I didn’t realise you were suggesting I sound like a Trump diehard.
 

westie4566

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That’s not Patagonia supporting antis though really, is it? It’s Patagonia supporting a charity where I live that is trying to stop driven grouse estates using illegal practices on their land. The estates that give antis all the ammunition they need. The estates that on other threads, many in the field sports community have agreed give the good estates a bad name and should be stopped. If you’re against Moorland Monitor, you’re for illegal land management. I can’t see anything on their site about banning shooting. They largely talk about the traps and stink pits in their socials, which they have evidence of and frequently share. Who IS allowed to police the estates...?
Well, MM frequently bang on about wanting grouse shooting banned - that's not really pro is it?
 

westie4566

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RF, sorry I'm not having a go and I'm not naive, but because a group of people want stop animal cruelty does not mean that they are anti's, the first thread stated that Patagonia were giving finial support to anti shooting radicals, this statement is simply not true. No where does it mention that Patagonia want to ban shooting. I just think that until MM are proven to be an anti shooting brigade then we shouldn't just jump to conclussions.
Go on Facebook and simply type in Moorland Monitors. Third entry down. 'The tide is rising and turning: Ban Driven Grouse Shooting'.

That sounds pretty anti shooting to me (y)
 

Roag Fisher

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RF, sorry I'm not having a go and I'm not naive, but because a group of people want stop animal cruelty does not mean that they are anti's, the first thread stated that Patagonia were giving finial support to anti shooting radicals, this statement is simply not true. No where does it mention that Patagonia want to ban shooting. I just think that until MM are proven to be an anti shooting brigade then we shouldn't just jump to conclussions.
The Moorland Monitors are Tingay/Avery/Packham supporters. I spent 30 seconds on google and there was Avery writing a guest blog for a moorland monitors group.
Animal cruelty? Sticking a hook in a fish? Shooting a seal or FEB damaging our sport? Ask a moorland monitor what they think of that.
 

Hoddom

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The shoot community really would do a huge amount of harm to their interests if they argue against stopping animal cruelty and illegal trapping etc.
And thats exactly how comments like many above would be interpreted
the world is changing and fighting it in negative angry ways will only accelerate the demise. far better to work with the reasonable people (there are nutters on both sides) to prolong grouse shooting if that’s your bag. Stonewalling angry responses are not smart.
anyone know where the research evidence - proper peer reviewed Evidence, not any utube photoshopped nonsense - is? I know nothing about grouse moors but would like to learn before making my mind up - what does evidence say about biodiversity and excess water run-off? Both sides are claiming the same as far I I can tell.
 

Loxie

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That's really not cool. Is there any neutral external monitoring body? Any schemes and standards that decent estates can sign up to, like the Red Tractor farm assurance...? Would take a LOT of wind out of sails if the 95% of land owners were transparent.
The moorland association
 

Loxie

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The shoot community really would do a huge amount of harm to their interests if they argue against stopping animal cruelty and illegal trapping etc.
And thats exactly how comments like many above would be interpreted
the world is changing and fighting it in negative angry ways will only accelerate the demise. far better to work with the reasonable people (there are nutters on both sides) to prolong grouse shooting if that’s your bag. Stonewalling angry responses are not smart.
anyone know where the research evidence - proper peer reviewed Evidence, not any utube photoshopped nonsense - is? I know nothing about grouse moors but would like to learn before making my mind up - what does evidence say about biodiversity and excess water run-off? Both sides are claiming the same as far I I can tell.
Try the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust for actual facts.
 

Hoddom

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Try the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust for actual facts.
Well, they are hardly going to be independent. I was thinking more about biodiversity researchers.

it’s a tricky business since Patagonia have done more to fight fish farms than any other company in the world as far as I’m aware.

Ooo oh, and those nano puff hoodies and trousers..... those gorgeous snuggles...

(not so sure about the €550 wading boots?)
 

Elibank

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Well, they are hardly going to be independent. I was thinking more about biodiversity researchers.

it’s a tricky business since Patagonia have done more to fight fish farms than any other company in the world as far as I’m aware.

Ooo oh, and those nano puff hoodies and trousers..... those gorgeous snuggles...

(not so sure about the €550 wading boots?)
Nano puff hoodies? Are we allowed to say that now?
 

Safranfoer

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"As anglers, we believe it’s our duty to stand for the waters we stand in and fight for a future that includes wild fish and wild waters—for everyone."

All very tricky. It's almost like not all field sports and the practices within them are the same...

Maybe people can buy ONE wading boot, in support of their stance on wild fish, and refuse the other, in total rejection of their support for Moorland Monitors.
 

Andrew B

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They only operate in the Peaks so while I agree they probably aren’t keen on all estates, their raison d’etre is to protect the wildlife in their backyard from illegal practices. And they don’t mention shooting ever, as far as I can tell. They’re probably smart in that regard - going after the crimes, not the principle. I follow them on Twitter and they share enough photos of piles of dead birds in a ditch and poisoned raptors for me to have little sympathy with the estate. If they don’t want to be monitored by a prejudiced bunch, they should stop committing crimes and leaving the evidence lying around. V surprised Derbyshire Police haven’t caught any dodgy types - but they only go after the walkers WEARING Patagonia, in fairness.

The community shouldn’t defend estates like Peak District if they want public support come any reckoning. They should be LOUDER than groups like Moorland Monitor in condemning them, not suggesting it’s the antis doing the crimes. ANTIFA!
There are some very antiquated views by some gamekeepers no doubt about it? I know a bloke who I’ve known years from walking the river with his deerhounds. Lovely chap by the way, but I knew he took his shotgun in some farmers private woods where I just presumed he was shooting crows.
Knowing he was a like minded Guy who knew about birds I told him I was buzzing to see a Sparrow Hawk on a kill in my garden and that they one of my favourite birds? His reply shocked me when he said they need their nests blowing out as they kill the ducklings lol. Talk about an antiquated Victorian view of raptors and I even told him that studies show that within a hundred yard of a sparrow hawk nest they’ve found to be a good number of diverse song birds ect?

There’s another side to this though about Grouse moors. I mean we all hear about the bad but what about those that are run really well? The main Grouse moor near me is called Boulsworth hill and owned by the Duke of Devonshire and I’ve seen Hen Harriers, Red Kite, Merlin, short eared Owls and large flocks of Golden Plover and further down Curlew and Lapwing. Would it be too much against the narrative to give praise where it’s due? Make no mistake these people have no love for Angling either as the evidence of the damage that saw billed ducks alone are having on Salmonids is overwhelming and they won’t allow them to be culled.
 

Andrew B

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Problem as I see it are often the laws. For those who do get caught they need slamming as do poachers caught with nets. We wouldn’t defend these poachers just as Grouse shooters ain’t gonna defend illegal killing of raptors?
 

Andrew B

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True. Mr Trump's supporters would also argue that he was robbed of his election win because of voting fraud. They are prejudiced extremists too.
As was Hillary Clinton’s supporters when they were duped into believing Russia helped steal the election based on the Steele Dossier? Its all just rinse and repeat on both sides and I actually feel for the voters on either side whilst Trump and Obama go back to their golf courses, all both sides have done is create such a hatred for each other based on what?
 
D

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So you haven’t answered the question, what illegal activity is MM involved in?
Moorland Monitors aren't necessarily doing anything illegal.What they do though is follow keepers when they're going about their day to day activities. Taking photos of legal traps and watching where the keepers set them,then they move in and destroy them at a later date.
They park out their houses or park up at distance and watch them through binoculars. They take photos and film of them. They follow them and their families.
My mate who is a Head Keeper on a well known Pennine Grouse Moor has vehicles parked daily on a road on the other side of a narrow valley with two people in it filming and watching. They follow the other keepers wives on school runs. Two members of MM even followed one of the keepers wives to the supermarket and followed them up and down the isles and the Police can't do a thing about it!
They want to make life very uncomfortable for them to the extent where it may cause a keeper to take the law into his own hands or may just pack the job up altogether.
I've suggested we start to follow these people ourselves and watch them cutting the grass,watching them eating a meal with their families through the kitchen window.
It's about time we started fighting fire with fire!!!!
 

Loxie

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Well, they are hardly going to be independent. I was thinking more about biodiversity researchers.

it’s a tricky business since Patagonia have done more to fight fish farms than any other company in the world as far as I’m aware.

Ooo oh, and those nano puff hoodies and trousers..... those gorgeous snuggles...

(not so sure about the €550 wading boots?)
They have a good selection of largely peer reviewed papers including on biodiversity linked on their website.
 

Loxie

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There are some very antiquated views by some gamekeepers no doubt about it? I know a bloke who I’ve known years from walking the river with his deerhounds. Lovely chap by the way, but I knew he took his shotgun in some farmers private woods where I just presumed he was shooting crows.
Knowing he was a like minded Guy who knew about birds I told him I was buzzing to see a Sparrow Hawk on a kill in my garden and that they one of my favourite birds? His reply shocked me when he said they need their nests blowing out as they kill the ducklings lol. Talk about an antiquated Victorian view of raptors and I even told him that studies show that within a hundred yard of a sparrow hawk nest they’ve found to be a good number of diverse song birds ect?

There’s another side to this though about Grouse moors. I mean we all hear about the bad but what about those that are run really well? The main Grouse moor near me is called Boulsworth hill and owned by the Duke of Devonshire and I’ve seen Hen Harriers, Red Kite, Merlin, short eared Owls and large flocks of Golden Plover and further down Curlew and Lapwing. Would it be too much against the narrative to give praise where it’s due? Make no mistake these people have no love for Angling either as the evidence of the damage that saw billed ducks alone are having on Salmonids is overwhelming and they won’t allow them to be culled.
Its all about perspective really. There are getting on for ten times as many buzzards breeding in the UK than cormorants. As anglers we want to cull cormorants because they kill "our" salmon. I think we all have to understand that culling predators is controversial and unlikely to make any of us any friends.
 

AlanT

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I decided a few years ago to boycott Patagonia when their materials were linked to animal cruelty (wool and the docking of lambs tails without any kind of anaesthesia, and with glee in the faces of those doing it).
I appreciate that we as humans are probably fairly close to animal suffering in everyday things that we use, eat or do as a sport but thought that what I saw was beyond what I thought was acceptable. We all have our limits.
 

firefly

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Never bought anything from them, not out of principle, but the Scandinavians were making outdoor clothing long before Patagonia came on the market and they still do. Not surprisingly everything that came later looks very similar and doesn't always meet up to their standards.
 

Hoddom

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I decided a few years ago to boycott Patagonia when their materials were linked to animal cruelty (wool and the docking of lambs tails without any kind of anaesthesia, and with glee in the faces of those doing it).
I appreciate that we as humans are probably fairly close to animal suffering in everyday things that we use, eat or do as a sport but thought that what I saw was beyond what I thought was acceptable. We all have our limits.
the mereno wool trade has some truly disgusting practices.
 
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