idiots with guns

marty31

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£500.00 fine for man who says he mistakenly shot a protected buzzard on pheasant shoot on ralia estate newtonmore
"keith riddoch of Aberdeen was found guilty at inverness sheriff court of reckless shooting, and told if he couldn't tell the difference between a pheasant and a buzzard he should not be let anywhere near a shot gun, Mmm £500.00 will not bring the buzzard back! maybe a simple test before these licences are thrown at people, to access if these shooters can tell the difference between the pheasants they are supposed to be targeting and protected birds of prey would be a good idea? or a visit to
"spec savers" these idiots do no good whatsoever to the industry and play into the hands of the antis
 

westie4566

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Evening Marty,

Getting the general impression on here that ye don't like shooting? Fair enough, that's yer own call.

As for the above story....well let's just say ye can never legislate for blind half wits.:p

I will say I have a gut feeling that there is more to this story than has been reported.:rolleyes:

I shot a bit as yoof and enjoyed it. Been 8 years since I last had a shotgun in hand. Enjoy shooting when on the rare occasions it happens. Even as my twilight years set in, I'm always delighted to find that my eye is still in.

Was a damned good shot in my yoof. But I'm going back many decades.
 

Tyke

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As an aside to this, why are buzzards still protected?

I thought that protection was to ensure the survival of scarce species (& quite right too), but buzzards are not only no longer scarce they are extremely common - around us I think they are too numerous & the young ones get pushed out as they can't establish a territory.

I have been told that the excessive buzzard numbers are one of the reasons we are seeing a drop in kestrels due to both completion and nest predation.

So, just a thought, but is the protected status ever reviewed? And will the pro raptor groups ever acknowledge that larger numbers of one species can impact adversely on another - goshawks certainly take a lot of kestrels & generally "don't play well with others".

It appears that under the present system the protection of buzzards is far more about lobbying pressure by the pro raptor groups than it is about genuine conservation of scarce species; to that end it rather dilutes the purpose of a protected status. With the buzzard numbers in Wales it's almost like conferring protected status on crows, (Well maybe not, as we have them in plague proportions!).

I just wondered who reviews the listed status? I assume it is largely on the basis of "evidence" provided to the government by the very groups who have a pro raptor agenda; so I don't suppose it will be changed to reflect reality any time soon.

The pillock shouldn't have shot the buzzard though.

Regards, Tyke.
 
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Handel

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Evening Marty,

Getting the general impression on here that ye don't like shooting? Fair enough, that's yer own call.

As for the above story....well let's just say ye can never legislate for blind half wits.:p

I will say I have a gut feeling that there is more to this story than has been reported.:rolleyes:

Sounds like it doesn't it. Given the Scots law position on this regarding keepers and landowners this man will have been very unpopular. I do recall a shoot where someone shot a blackbird :confused: so there are some plonkers out there.

Don't know how common buzzards are in that part of the world but down the M4 corridor they are everywhere. And as for kites, I saw a flock of 15 recently. And as for them just being carrion eaters, there just isn't that much carrion. What used to predate on buzzards and kites before man came along? Eagles?
 

Loxie

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As an aside to this, why are buzzards still protected?

I thought that protection was to ensure the survival of scarce species (& quite right too), but buzzards are not only no longer scarce they are extremely common - around us I think they are too numerous & the young ones get pushed out as they can't establish a territory.

I have been told that the excessive buzzard numbers are one of the reasons we are seeing a drop in kestrels due to both completion and nest predation.

So, just a thought, but is the protected status ever reviewed? And will the pro raptor groups ever acknowledge that larger numbers of one species can impact adversely on another - goshawks certainly take a lot of kestrels & generally "don't play well with others".

It appears that under the present system the protection of buzzards is far more about lobbying pressure by the pro raptor groups than it is about genuine conservation of scarce species; to that end it rather dilutes the purpose of a protected status. With the buzzard numbers in Wales it's almost like conferring protected status on crows, (Well maybe not, as we have them in plague proportions!).

I just wondered who reviews the listed status? I assume it is largely on the basis of "evidence" provided to the government by the very groups who have a pro raptor agenda; so I don't suppose it will be changed to reflect reality any time soon.

The pillock shouldn't have shot the buzzard though.

Regards, Tyke.

It's worse than that. It is pretty much impossible to get a licence to kill a problem buzzard despite being based on the same criteria for getting a licence to kill cormorants. A cormorant licence is fairly easy to get and there is a realistic hope of getting them on the general licence. There are 10 times as many breeding pairs of buzzards in the UK than cormorants.

I do agree about the pillock!

As to the OP I don't think any special training is needed for a gun licence but perhaps there is a case for a new game licence requiring some knowledge of safety, quarry identification, effective ranges etc. I believe there are countries requiring this. To my mind there a good deal too much bad practice in commercial shooting that largely stems from participants being new to it and not having gone through the rigourous apprenticeship common when I was a lad. The shoots could take some responsibility too by not showing ridiculously high birds to inexperienced and ill equipped guns then employing loaders that encourage them to blaze away at out of range birds.
 
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ozzyian

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Out of interest would that make it pretty much impossible for the guy to renew his certificate - or in fact have to inform the police and likely have it rescinded there and then?
 

Wee-Eck

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Out of interest would that make it pretty much impossible for the guy to renew his certificate - or in fact have to inform the police and likely have it rescinded there and then?

If he was charged with Reckless Discharge of a Firearm under the current firearms regulations then his firearms would have been impounded by the police and his firearm/shotgun certificates rescinded. He can apply to the Sheriff Court to have this restriction removed but he would be unlikely to succeed unless he had a very very good lawyer.
 

Sash

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As an aside to this, why are buzzards still protected?

I thought that protection was to ensure the survival of scarce species (& quite right too), but buzzards are not only no longer scarce they are extremely common - around us I think they are too numerous & the young ones get pushed out as they can't establish a territory.

I have been told that the excessive buzzard numbers are one of the reasons we are seeing a drop in kestrels due to both completion and nest predation.

So, just a thought, but is the protected status ever reviewed? And will the pro raptor groups ever acknowledge that larger numbers of one species can impact adversely on another - goshawks certainly take a lot of kestrels & generally "don't play well with others".

It appears that under the present system the protection of buzzards is far more about lobbying pressure by the pro raptor groups than it is about genuine conservation of scarce species; to that end it rather dilutes the purpose of a protected status. With the buzzard numbers in Wales it's almost like conferring protected status on crows, (Well maybe not, as we have them in plague proportions!).

I just wondered who reviews the listed status? I assume it is largely on the basis of "evidence" provided to the government by the very groups who have a pro raptor agenda; so I don't suppose it will be changed to reflect reality any time soon.

The pillock shouldn't have shot the buzzard though.

Regards, Tyke.

Actually, in UK law ALL birds are protected, not just scare ones, EXCEPT:
- Specified game birds (pheasants, partridges, duck, geese, etc)
- Pest species that can be killed on a General Licence (pigeons, crows, now also Canada Geese)
- Pest species where a licence to kill them may be issued if it can be proved that other methods of control do not work (e.g. some fish-eating species, such as cormorants and Goosanders).

The categories are reviewed regularly, at the request of all parties (gamekeepers, fisheries, farmers, conservationists): Canada Geese came onto the General Licence quite recently due to the damage they do both to water quality and some farms.

We need to be aware that the sheer quantity (and quality) of data that has been accumulated by scientific conservation bodies like the British Trust for Ornithology is almost impossible to argue against, certainty to government: the recent Atlas of Breeding Birds of the UK and Ireland took 5 years to compile and has well over 15,000 contributors, while the latest Population Estimates of Birds in Great Britain and the United Kingdom is a peer-reviewed paper: there is no almost higher quality science than that.

You are absolutely right that raptors can have an effect on other raptors: in my part of Pembrokeshire its Peregrines on Kestrels. The Buzzard vs Osprey predation is unusual, but Goshawks are well-known to predate on Buzzards. Ultimately, all of these species are apex predators, so their numbers and distribution are totally related to food and habitat: if either goes, so will the predators: they don't need us to control them.

I worry that field sports will lose even more public support if we are seen to have an intensifying anti-raptor (and fish-eating birds) agenda. And cases like this one really play into the antis hands.
 
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Mattytree

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It goes on openly the killing of buzzards on estates I have worked and know a few of keepers that are only doing what they are told , just as I am cutting down a 200 year old Tree that in my opinion offers far more Benifit as biodiversity habitat for wild life and fauna but there just seems to be a mental block on changing there ways to adapt with changing views on conservation especially when it comes to protecting there pheasants with some of the gentry... custodians of the country side some of them need a kick up the ****.. The fella who brought our last house was flying a perigrin he had spent 10 years training and it was shot , luckily they hadn’t taken the tracker off just hoyed in under a bridge in a ditch so he successfully managed to prosticute the offender as no one else in the shooting party wanted to loose there licence.
 

Loxie

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Out of interest would that make it pretty much impossible for the guy to renew his certificate - or in fact have to inform the police and likely have it rescinded there and then?

Scottish law is different to English law I believe but you would almost certainly loose your certificate in England.
 

Loxie

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Actually, in UK law ALL birds are protected, not just scare ones, EXCEPT:
- Specified game birds (pheasants, partridges, duck, geese, etc)
- Pest species that can be killed on a General Licence (pigeons, crows, now also Canada Geese)
- Pest species where a licence to kill them may be issued if it can be proved that other methods of control do not work (e.g. some fish-eating species, such as cormorants and Goosanders).

The categories are reviewed regularly, at the request of all parties (gamekeepers, fisheries, farmers, conservationists): Canada Geese came onto the General Licence quite recently due to the damage they do both to water quality and some farms.

We need to be aware that the sheer quantity (and quality) of data that has been accumulated by scientific conservation bodies like the British Trust for Ornithology is almost impossible to argue against, certainty to government: the recent Atlas of Breeding Birds of the UK and Ireland took 5 years to compile and has over 15,000 contributors, while the latest Population Estimates of Birds in Great Britain and the United Kingdom is a peer-reviewed paper: there is no almost higher quality science than that.

You are absolutely right that raptors can have an effect on other raptors: in my part of Pembrokeshire its Peregrines on Kestrels. The Buzzard vs Osprey predation is unusual, but Goshawks are well-known to predate on Buzzards. Ultimately, all of these species are apex predators, so their numbers and distribution are totally related to food and habitat: if either goes, so will the predators: they don't need us to control them.

I worry that field sports will lose even more public support if we are seen to have an intensifying anti-raptor (and fish-eating birds) agenda. And cases like this one really play into the antis hands.

I don't think you are quite right here. I didn't think there was a category for killing birds under licence, all birds are equal in that respect. The burden of proof is quite high and any licensing must not impact populations.


The Canada goose is unique in that it is both a quarry species, killable for sport and food in season, and also on the general licence, killable when causing damage.
 

Bushwhacker

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Sounds like it doesn't it. Given the Scots law position on this regarding keepers and landowners this man will have been very unpopular. I do recall a shoot where someone shot a blackbird :confused: so there are some plonkers out there.

Don't know how common buzzards are in that part of the world but down the M4 corridor they are everywhere. And as for kites, I saw a flock of 15 recently. And as for them just being carrion eaters, there just isn't that much carrion. What used to predate on buzzards and kites before man came along? Eagles?

Eagle Owls are known to take them...
 

Taddy

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£500.00 fine for man who says he mistakenly shot a protected buzzard on pheasant shoot on ralia estate newtonmore
"keith riddoch of Aberdeen was found guilty at inverness sheriff court of reckless shooting, and told if he couldn't tell the difference between a pheasant and a buzzard he should not be let anywhere near a shot gun, Mmm £500.00 will not bring the buzzard back! maybe a simple test before these licences are thrown at people, to access if these shooters can tell the difference between the pheasants they are supposed to be targeting and protected birds of prey would be a good idea? or a visit to
"spec savers" these idiots do no good whatsoever to the industry and play into the hands of the antis
At first glance i thought the "police"
 

Irish Monkey

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£500.00 fine for man who says he mistakenly shot a protected buzzard on pheasant shoot on ralia estate newtonmore
"keith riddoch of Aberdeen was found guilty at inverness sheriff court of reckless shooting, and told if he couldn't tell the difference between a pheasant and a buzzard he should not be let anywhere near a shot gun, Mmm £500.00 will not bring the buzzard back! maybe a simple test before these licences are thrown at people, to access if these shooters can tell the difference between the pheasants they are supposed to be targeting and protected birds of prey would be a good idea? or a visit to
"spec savers" these idiots do no good whatsoever to the industry and play into the hands of the antis

I have liked your post only because the people that claim to be unable to distinguish a bird of prey is a liar and should at least have his licence suspended at the very least.
The sort of action carried out by a few law breakers affects all law abiding guns.
 

Lostcityboy

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To me it's just a simple case of....buzzards are a threat to pheasants,so he shot it.
The couldn't tell the difference story,is the first excuse to come to the liar with the gun when caught.
 

Loxie

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I have liked your post only because the people that claim to be unable to distinguish a bird of prey is a liar and should at least have his licence suspended at the very least.
The sort of action carried out by a few law breakers affects all law abiding guns.

I'm sorry to say that it is surprising how many of today's sportsman are not naturalists. The tricky one for beginners is the sparrow hawk. It looks very like a pigeon to a tyro. Actually if I'm honest I've many times been fooled myself, and I'm not a tyro. I was, however, brought up to never fire on something I was not 100% certain of what it was so I've never shot at one.

Now firing at a buzzard, especially one close enough to kill, takes a special kind of stupid.
 

Rustic1

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It goes on openly the killing of buzzards on estates I have worked and know a few of keepers that are only doing what they are told , just as I am cutting down a 200 year old Tree that in my opinion offers far more Benifit as biodiversity habitat for wild life and fauna but there just seems to be a mental block on changing there ways to adapt with changing views on conservation especially when it comes to protecting there pheasants with some of the gentry... custodians of the country side some of them need a kick up the ****.. The fella who brought our last house was flying a perigrin he had spent 10 years training and it was shot , luckily they hadn’t taken the tracker off just hoyed in under a bridge in a ditch so he successfully managed to prosticute the offender as no one else in the shooting party wanted to loose there licence.

Rightly so, should also have his gun and right to own animals of any kind removed for life as well. Bloody disgrace.
 

Tyke777

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I'm sorry to say that it is surprising how many of today's sportsman are not naturalists. The tricky one for beginners is the sparrow hawk. It looks very like a pigeon to a tyro. Actually if I'm honest I've many times been fooled myself, and I'm not a tyro. I was, however, brought up to never fire on something I was not 100% certain of what it was so I've never shot at one.

Now firing at a buzzard, especially one close enough to kill, takes a special kind of stupid.


ID is all important - a bird that is very "hawk like" at a glance is the now all too rare Cuckoo
 

marty31

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As an aside to this, why are buzzards still protected?

I thought that protection was to ensure the survival of scarce species (& quite right too), but buzzards are not only no longer scarce they are extremely common - around us I think they are too numerous & the young ones get pushed out as they can't establish a territory.

I have been told that the excessive buzzard numbers are one of the reasons we are seeing a drop in kestrels due to both completion and nest predation.

So, just a thought, but is the protected status ever reviewed? And will the pro raptor groups ever acknowledge that larger numbers of one species can impact adversely on another - goshawks certainly take a lot of kestrels & generally "don't play well with others".

It appears that under the present system the protection of buzzards is far more about lobbying pressure by the pro raptor groups than it is about genuine conservation of scarce species; to that end it rather dilutes the purpose of a protected status. With the buzzard numbers in Wales it's almost like conferring protected status on crows, (Well maybe not, as we have them in plague proportions!).

I just wondered who reviews the listed status? I assume it is largely on the basis of "evidence" provided to the government by the very groups who have a pro raptor agenda; so I don't suppose it will be changed to reflect reality any time soon.

The pillock shouldn't have shot the buzzard though.

Regards, Tyke.
tyke, my old sparring partner
if your post only included the last sentence I might have even liked it
the rest of it might sing true to a degree, but, the law is the law and like it or disagree with it, it is still the law, and the pillock said he thought it was a pheasant, imo these guns should not be allowed anywhere near guns if they don't know basic/simple recognition of their quarry, getting mixed up with protected birds should not be a option, if there is doubt, don't shoot! however there is still a hint of a bit of sympathy hinted, unjustified imo, the thread was intended to bring out and publish, what the AH did, not to justify who reviews the status, or what damage buzzards do, the point is, the man shot a protected bird! what justification can be given?
 

marty31

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sink23
I see that you have disliked my post/thread
that's a bit drastic when all I have done is reported on a recent court case with a guilty result, ending with a fine and a dressing down about being (obviously) reckless with regard for the law and protected birds,
can I ask, on what grounds, reasons, the dislike, (insult imo) was given?
 

rover

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sink23
I see that you have disliked my post/thread
that's a bit drastic when all I have done is reported on a recent court case with a guilty result, ending with a fine and a dressing down about being (obviously) reckless with regard for the law and protected birds,
can I ask, on what grounds, reasons, the dislike, (insult imo) was given?

Hi Marty31.
I also disliked your post. Reason being you used plural i.e. Idiots with Guns, referring that it is all firearm/shotgun certificate holders are to blame.
I totally agree the person involved should be responsible for their actions but please don't refer to all cert holders in your title.
Jim
 

jcmj

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Idiots with Guns

Hi Marty31.
I also disliked your post. Reason being you used plural i.e. Idiots with Guns, referring that it is all firearm/shotgun certificate holders are to blame.
I totally agree the person involved should be responsible for their actions but please don't refer to all cert holders in your title.
Jim

Good point well made.
A tiny minority of idiotic people can spoil it for the rest of us though, so this particular one deserves all the bad publicity he gets as a deterrent to other would be idiots.
 

Tyke

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tyke, my old sparring partner
if your post only included the last sentence I might have even liked it
the rest of it might sing true to a degree, but, the law is the law and like it or disagree with it, it is still the law, and the pillock said he thought it was a pheasant, imo these guns should not be allowed anywhere near guns if they don't know basic/simple recognition of their quarry, getting mixed up with protected birds should not be a option, if there is doubt, don't shoot! however there is still a hint of a bit of sympathy hinted, unjustified imo, the thread was intended to bring out and publish, what the AH did, not to justify who reviews the status, or what damage buzzards do, the point is, the man shot a protected bird! what justification can be given?

To answer your last point - none, as there is no justification under existing legislation.

My point was merely to illustrate that the existing legislation is completely out of date & no longer reflects the need to protect endangered species.

If the protectionist lobby want the legislation to have any degree of relevance then they must acknowledge when a species is no longer endangered & accept its' removal from this status; and accept that in specific localities it has now become a pest species which is to the detriment of other, now more scarce, species.

A failure to recognise this shows that their' arguments are not founded in science or best practice, but are simply the result of the pre conceived ideology of anti field sports & pro raptor groups - to the detriment of wildlife as a whole because who cares about avian prey species? They aren't sexy killers commanding air-time on the BBC, & so won't keep the donations rolling in.

Regards, Tyke.
 

marty31

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Hi Marty31.
I also disliked your post. Reason being you used plural i.e. Idiots with Guns, referring that it is all firearm/shotgun certificate holders are to blame.
I totally agree the person involved should be responsible for their actions but please don't refer to all cert holders in your title.
Jim
Mmmm I totally except what you point out, but singular may be to lean a word, because there is more than one idiot going about shooting protected birds, but no way did the plural intend to mean the 95% or there abouts who know exactly what they are doing, and would never think about putting themselves in the position of this idiot! so in this instance I might just have to like to be disliked, and I respect your reply
cheers marty
 
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