How green is green?

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
459
Location
Cheshire
Had a beer with a couple ex work colleagues last night, both now retired. Havent worked together for 6 or 7 years but meet up every 2 to 3 months to chew the fat and put the world to rights.

Being older and wiser than me ( well definitely the older bit) there is often some good debate.

One us a real petrol head. Currently running a porsche, an aston and an XFR (nothing he drives has economy in the forefront of decissions - he's had e-types, Ferraris and other porsches as well).
So, conversation got round to electric cars. Very interesting debate, so been doing a bit of reading today.

The summary is that the whole life carbon emissions for an electric car (production of batteries, electricity generation - not all of it is renewable - and decommision) is higher than for a petrol or diesel car. Add to that the ecological damage of mining the materials or the damage to the sea bed from stripping deposits and electric cars appear far more damaging to the planet than those run on fossil fuels.

Interesting.
 

Rrrr

Well-known member
Messages
6,471
Reaction score
526
Electric cars are good for those who like to feel better about themselves, the techs not really there yet in terms of miles per charge and the cost outweighs the benefit in my opinion.
Hybrids seem the sensible compramise but you are still paying a premium to save a bit on fuel costs.


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

Wee-Eck

Well-known member
Messages
1,082
Reaction score
98
Norway has the highest number of EVs per head of population in the world. But they hedge their bets because almost all of them still have their trusty Volvos for winter driving and longer journeys. Not convinced.
 

seeking

Active member
Messages
3,925
Reaction score
24
Location
Yorkshire (were there a god it'd be god's own coun
Shhh...

Besides there being nowhere near enough supplies of Cu, Co, Ni, Li for 100% ER fleets in even the UK without making the resource price shoot up and become prohibitive.

(going electric is a typical bourgouis developed world consumerist nonsense, exporting the pollution to countries least equipped to monitor, evaluate and remediate it!) Show the workings for life of unit total (unexpurgated and subsidised) emissions for a power windmill...

Green, MRIA.



.
 
Last edited:

Rrrr

Well-known member
Messages
6,471
Reaction score
526
Norway has the highest number of EVs per head of population in the world. But they hedge their bets because almost all of them still have their trusty Volvos for winter driving and longer journeys. Not convinced.
Yea, the batteries dont like really cold weather so range will be reduced. Never driven one in the snow but i would expect the instant high torque from the motors to be an issue too.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

westie4566

Well-known member
Messages
8,057
Reaction score
802
Location
Aberdeen
My thoughts entirely on the EV thing. One of my mates is very keen on them, despite being a died in the wool petrol head.

I saw a picture the other week of a charging station being run.....by a diesel genny:wow:

As Seeking says, it appeals to the type of driver who thinks they are doing something, without actually thinking!

My mate recently test drove a MG EV. The build quality was dismal. He sent me a pic of underneath where it was clear some of the subframe had been hacked away to fit some of the leccy stuff....it was rough as a badgers...and they hadn't even re done the underseal. The quoted range figures were miles off too.
 
Last edited:

Rrrr

Well-known member
Messages
6,471
Reaction score
526
I think the main selling point of the electric car is that you can tell everyone that you meet that you own an electric car.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

Chicharito

Well-known member
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
327
Location
HUDDERSFIELD
What about Hydrogen cars, or methane powered cars. Are they Greta Thunberg friendly ?
What about a solar powered car for summer and a wind powered one for winter. ( powered by Brussels sprouts . Oh no that's methane isn't it .
I will no doubt be buying another diesel next, just to annoy the tree hugging Gretas of this world.
I have done my carbon friendly bit by not having kids so feel like I have earned my gas guzzling, high emissions vehicle !
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
459
Location
Cheshire
I think the main selling point of the electric car is that you can tell everyone that you meet that you own an electric car.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Too many of these goody goody holier than thou brigade dont look at the bigger picture. All they look at is the headline that makes things justify their argument. The fact it does more harm than good is immaterial.

The other interesting debate is global warming. Read another interesting paper on thermal capacity and the temperature difference between air and water to raise the teperature by one degree. We'd be cooked long before it happened. Sea temperature rises and ice cap melting is more likely to result from the sun shining on those surfaces than the rise in air temperature.
The analogy was in trying to heat your bath water by putting electric heaters in your bathroom.
Again, very interesting reading.
No doubt something is happening, but big assumptions are being made as to the cause.
 

sneakypeter

Well-known member
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
166
when technology arrives that gives EV,s a realistic range (4/500 miles) coupled with built in wind turbine type recharging capability, I don,t mean huge great props, but small enclosed turbo type generators, then they might get a decent uptake, but with only a few offering 200 mile + range, and that can get hammered by anything unusual, ie. high temperatures (air con on), freezing cold( heaters, demisters etc), couple that with an all too common nasty, gridlocked motorway, at night, then you can see your journey getting interrupted by a recharging stop, always assuming, you can find one, that isn,t already in use, or out of order!!!! Not at all convinced.
peter
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
4,794
Reaction score
305
Location
East Lothian
Agree with pretty much all that has been said with regard the social statement made by buying an EV and it's hypocritical reality.

I'm probably one of the filthiest dinosaur squeezings combustors on the forum as I have a liking for older high performance engines, the sort that Greta would p!ss herself over and would undoubtedly refuse a lift from if she was 100 miles from water in the outback.

However:):) Must admit to being interested in the progress of EV. Certainly from a commercial aspect as a technology it's pretty interesting stuff. One thing I have noticed in the town where I live is the number of Tesla S's that seem to have appeared from nowhere over the last couple of months.

Anyway gents, get used to it. Euro 7 (I think) is about to hit. It's a bit complicated and they seem to have changed the rules on the go but in a nutshell those fellas in Brussels have devised a fine system for manufacturers (fine as in punishment) It works by targeting an average CO2 output of 95g/km (on their test) For every 10g over that the manufacturer gets a $1000 fine (roughly) per car, so if a normal car (say a 3 series beamer) produces 120g/km BMW get fined $2500.

It's all done on averages and this is where EV comes in. If you only make Range Rovers (+/- 200 g/km) you are basically fecked. But if you sell an EV Range Rover (0g/km) for each petrol one you aren't as you average down. See how it works?

My guess is get ready for some weird car pricing - artificial inflation of dinosaur remains burners and cheap(er) EV as manufacturers get to grips with forcing more Li and cobalt into landfill :)))

This is really a problem as secondary use of the batteries and materials (or recycling) is extremely difficult and lagging well behind the pace of the increase in primary use (the cars themselves) Anyway, quite interesting all the same, however I admit that I have a hankering to supercharge my M3 engined E30:) - just to keep things evened up.
 
Last edited:

westie4566

Well-known member
Messages
8,057
Reaction score
802
Location
Aberdeen
What about Hydrogen cars, or methane powered cars. Are they Greta Thunberg friendly ?
What about a solar powered car for summer and a wind powered one for winter. ( powered by Brussels sprouts . Oh no that's methane isn't it .
I will no doubt be buying another diesel next, just to annoy the tree hugging Gretas of this world.
I have done my carbon friendly bit by not having kids so feel like I have earned my gas guzzling, high emissions vehicle !
Me too...nae kids, so I've kept my carbon footprint relatively clean:lol:

I'm also on the out look for a new car next year, simply because I've never taken to my XC90. It's big, capable and reliable but just doesn't 'do' it for me. Currently car shopping and find myself heading back to an A6 Allroad. Nice big V6 3L diesel engine:tongue: On the bright side it's a lot 'cleaner' than my old Allroad....the road tax tells me so.....lol.
 

westie4566

Well-known member
Messages
8,057
Reaction score
802
Location
Aberdeen
Agree with pretty much all that has been said with regard the social statement made by buying an EV and it's hypocritical reality.

I'm probably one of the filthiest dinosaur squeezings combustors on the forum as I have a liking for older high performance engines, the sort that Greta would p!ss herself over and would undoubtedly refuse a lift from if she was 100 miles from water in the outback.

However:):) Must admit to being interested in the progress of EV. Certainly from a commercial aspect as a technology it's pretty interesting stuff. One thing I have noticed in the town where I live is the number of Tesla S's that seem to have appeared from nowhere over the last couple of months.

Anyway gents, get used to it. Euro 7 (I think) is about to hit. It's a bit complicated and they seem to have changed the rules on the go but in a nutshell those fellas in Brussels have devised a fine system for manufacturers (fine as in punishment) It works by targeting an average CO2 output of 95g/km (on their test) For every 10g over that the manufacturer gets a $1000 fine (roughly) per car, so if a normal car (say a 3 series beamer) produces 120g/km BMW get fined $2500.

It's all done on averages and this is where EV comes in. If you only make Range Rovers (+/- 200 g/km) you are basically fecked. But if you sell an EV Range Rover (0g/km) for each petrol one you aren't as you average down. See how it works?

My guess is get ready for some weird car pricing - artificial inflation of dinosaur remains burners and cheap(er) EV as manufacturers get to grips with forcing more Li and cobalt into landfill :)))

This is really a problem as secondary use of the batteries and materials (or recycling) is extremely difficult and lagging well behind the pace of the increase in primary use (the cars themselves) Anyway, quite interesting all the same, however I admit that I have a hankering to supercharge my M3 engined E30:) - just to keep things evened up.
I like your style Ian:D
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
459
Location
Cheshire

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
4,794
Reaction score
305
Location
East Lothian
TBH if you can have a friendly word with your ruminating friends and ask them to cut down on the belching then your environmental impact will be mitigated:)
 

ArchieL

Active member
Messages
628
Reaction score
225
I drive a 4x4 and i will be trading it in next year and i will not be even looking at any hybrid or electric car. I will be looking at the new X5 or a XC90 in diesel or petrol. You nee lots of charging stations and bays for electric cars and can anyone confirm that the old batteries will not end up in some 3rd world country where they are stripped of their parts by dipping in baths of acid then the acid poured into the sea or river like what happens at present with all our old tech items. Also i know people who have got rid of their electric cars as they were fed up having to sit in random places charging their car at night before being able to get home. They said it is a nice idea but planning journeys is a disaster as it all depends on you finding a charging station and it working or being available. Not for me im afraid. I can just see the ghillies face when you ask him where the charging point for the beat is :lol: Never mind as i must dash down to Dobies to get some more gas patio heaters as it is getting cold again.:lol:
 

ArchieL

Active member
Messages
628
Reaction score
225
We need a technology along the infrastrucure lines we have now so hydrogen has to be the main contender.
Dont fancy driving round in a car loaded with hydrogen , Hindenburg springs to mind , maybe they would be safe but that what jumps into my mind. I think we are still a good few years away before we need to think about these cars yet. There is just not the infrastructure to support them seriously yet and i cannot see it being a fast fix.
 

Roag Fisher

Well-known member
Messages
1,955
Reaction score
299
Location
Isle of Lewis

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
459
Location
Cheshire
TBH if you can have a friendly word with your ruminating friends and ask them to cut down on the belching then your environmental impact will be mitigated:)
Said it before, if i stopped eating meat and became vegetarian, it would be carbon neutral because of all the greenhouse gasses produced by ME.

Shutting down parliament would help. They produce a lot of hot air and TALK ****.
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
4,794
Reaction score
305
Location
East Lothian
Said it before, if i stopped eating meat and became vegetarian, it would be carbon neutral because of all the greenhouse gasses produced by ME.

Shutting down parliament would help. They produce a lot of hot air and TALK ****.
Or perhaps try the environmentally friendly and extremely amusing practise of igniting your own methane output upon production
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
7,485
Reaction score
973
Well that’s depressing.

I read your links, thought ‘there must be a counter argument...’, did a bit of reading. And no. There is no counter argument. Unless you’re involved in the production of e vehicles.

Even The Guardian agrees with you/the science.

I don’t understand the world.
 

mows

Well-known member
Messages
3,161
Reaction score
600
Location
edzell
Well that’s depressing.

I read your links, thought ‘there must be a counter argument...’, did a bit of reading. And no. There is no counter argument. Unless you’re involved in the production of e vehicles.

Even The Guardian agrees with you/the science.

I don’t understand the world.
Climate change is a fact, that has been in action forever. It's just that it's never been weaponised as a means to financially exploit the population. The wheels are slowly falling of the it's all CO2 wagon. It's now being weaponised for all kinds of means. If your vegetarian, blame the cows. If your carnivore blame the soya bean, Palm oil. There is no doubt we should all be more environmentally aware and recycle more, but pretending it's all CO2 achieves almost nothing. Being abroad just now, it's clear that even if we were 100% environmentally neutral in the UK, it would statistically make almost no difference.
 
Top