Faster Action?

Springer

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Well I guess I'm wrong then:) + the last post was a bit badly written. As for the comparison with the 14' DTX and Cult's I meant that the Cult's bend/action were more closer to the DTX or S rod which are med-fast then say a Echo DH which is a full flexing rod. The overall feel of the DTX and Cult's was different. All rods have been tested with lines that are recommended by the manufactures and with some that aren't. A friend of mine has some good pics taken of the different bends of the rods we tested - I'll try to get them from him and post them here.

Im not saying you are wrong jabster, as I havent cast the same rod that you have. My experience of the Vision Cult covers 3 or 4 different DH rods in different lengths, all of them fitted the description given by Vision.
 

Springer

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The pictures show the tip during the same cast, unloading then returning to rest

Sorry Im lost Steve, is there a reason to show this? are you looking to stimulate discussion about it?
 

Scanny

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With the recovery of the blank being discussed, it's a usefull visual aid for any members who haven't seen how the tip behaves.
 
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munro

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Stevie post 68 is that a loomis or a dtx and who is doing the casting
 

Jock

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Stevie post 68 is that a loomis or a dtx and who is doing the casting

Please tell, for if that is a single cast it is the slowest actioned rod I've ever seen......the clouds are moving faster:eek: :D

Sorry Scanny, but your science leaves a lot to be desired. I really loved this part of your disclaimer
Disclaimer: "Its a linear model, so not representative"........what more can I say:rolleyes:
 

Scanny

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Good evening Jock,

You are aware the differences in behaviour of a tapered tube in both Cfre and a linear elastic material, perhaps you could enlighten the members interested what they are. Then they judge if the difference makes a linear check unrepresentative of a tapered tube in bending, for a layperson.

Interesting view on the rod, I can't say anyone who's cast it would concur. As for the person casting, I will hold his opinion in higher regard than yours if it's all the same :)

Your gues'timate of the blank leaves a lot to be desired :rolleyes:
 
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Springer

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Good evening Jock,

You are aware the differences in behaviour of a tapered tube in both Cfre and a linear elastic material, perhaps you could enlighten the members interested what they are. Then they judge if the difference makes a linear check unrepresentative of a tapered tube in bending, for a layperson.

Interesting view on the rod, I can't say anyone who's cast it would concur. As for the person casting, I will hold his opinion in higher regard than yours if it's all the same :)

Your gues'timate of the blank leaves a lot to be desired :rolleyes:

Ive never seen anyone use so many words to actually say nothing Scanny. I find the often unrelated technical jargon really tiresome and wonder exactly what the point of it all is?

We know you are well educated but Ive yet to see anything you have said about rod technology or casting that shows me you know very much about either, in particular based on your own trial and error and experience.

Instead we seem to have to endure an endless barrage of sycophantic name dropping and product placing, will it ever stop I wonder?
 

Scanny

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Alan,

In fairness, Jock did decide to raise the issue so a right of reply is not unreasonable. As you said, 99.9% of this might mean little or nothing to people, Jocks knowledge put him in the 0.1% who could and commented :) so I took the time to reply.

I of course hold my own opinions of others, yet seek my own council :)

I was unaware I was product placing, I'll happily discuss that with you privately, amongst others.
 
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Jock

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Good evening Jock,

You are aware the differences in behaviour of a tapered tube in both Cfre and a linear elastic material, perhaps you could enlighten the members interested what they are.

I'll pass on that...... I have a life:D

Good evening Jock,
As for the person casting, I will hold his opinion in higher regard than yours if it's all the same :)

As it looks like the hand of a God I fully understand this.:D

Your gues'timate of the blank leaves a lot to be desired :rolleyes:

It was a bit of a guess I have to admit....... no indication of wind speed, cloud height, camera speed, time lapse..... the list is endless. Could you supply the essential info. to allow a more accurate gues'timate:D

Thanks in anticipation.

Jock
 

Lohi

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Good evening Jock,

You are aware the differences in behaviour of a tapered tube in both Cfre and a linear elastic material, perhaps you could enlighten the members interested what they are. Then they judge if the difference makes a linear check unrepresentative of a tapered tube in bending, for a layperson...
I assume that you have taken into account in your calculations, that you have a nonlinear case in terms of large deflections, and if any cross section deformation is present, also large deformations. As an expert on CFRP, how much material nonlinearity would you expect to occur on a normal carbon fibre fly rod during normal casting load?

All in all, I have serious difficulties to see any relevance on linear bending case in this respect. Btw. What type of element you used in your model?
 

leedsgarth

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rod geeking

gotta say chaps with all respect as someone who spent a lot of my life involved with blank/rod design/sampling most of what you say is pretty intelligent sounding stuff but has very little to do with actually what happens when you wrap base material/resins/glues etc round a mandrel................................
to get the end result of what is actually just another rod blank and needs testing to the end of the world before it can be (should be) released into the big wide world.

all the direction/linear/loading talk in the world cannot change the fact that bench/lab. tests do not always produce a good rod.
testing and "useage on the bank-design" is as much an importance as anything.

in a rod factory very little of what has been said here is of much revelance sorry to tell you.

let me add-
once upon a time we thought we had found the golden fleece of rod materials/resins and a range of rods was launched onto the market we thought will change the world.
thinnner/ligher/stronger it all seemed.

then when people tried fishing a deep Di7 on them and casting 40 yards or hooking fish at 30foot down many broke.

beware brands who this year say they have new (very expensive) rods that are thinner/lighter/stronger.
that is all I would say:)

LG
 

Lohi

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gotta say chaps with all respect as someone who spent a lot of my life involved with blank/rod design/sampling most of what you say is pretty intelligent sounding stuff but has very little to do with actually what happens when you wrap base material/resins/glues etc round a mandrel................................
to get the end result of what is actually just another rod blank and needs testing to the end of the world before it can be (should be) released into the big wide world.

all the direction/linear/loading talk in the world cannot change the fact that bench/lab. tests do not always produce a good rod.
testing and "useage on the bank-design" is as much an importance as anything.

in a rod factory very little of what has been said here is of much revelance sorry to tell you.

let me add-
once upon a time we thought we had found the golden fleece of rod materials/resins and a range of rods was launched onto the market we thought will change the world.
thinnner/ligher/stronger it all seemed.

then when people tried fishing a deep Di7 on them and casting 40 yards or hooking fish at 30foot down many broke.

beware brands who this year say they have new (very expensive) rods that are thinner/lighter/stronger.
that is all I would say:)

LG
Well, you may have just pointed out the fact, that the rod "design" has very little to do with actually designing anything. Luckily, engineers make stuff like aeroplanes, high tech sailing boats etc. out of carbon fibre, understanding the behaviour of the material, structure, and design loads, and subsequently, we do not have many of those "unforeseen" breakages on these structures... :eek:
 

leedsgarth

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bending

Lohi, old chap, sir,

boats and planes do not need to bend as much as fishing rods need to.
planes are strong and wings need to flex a lot,
but not as much as over 90o to near on 180o as rods do.

plus the angling public are much more price concious than Boeing/Sunseeker/Cunard/Airbus "et al".

that is why it is not as easy to design them to be perfect/unbreakable as the fishing general public think!

LG
 

Springer

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I agree with a lot of what you say LG.

Computer modeling is important, more so in aeroplance's and F1 cars than fishing rods IMHO. There are lots of good and well respected blank makers who dont go anywhere near a computer for design work. Instead they are aware of the materials they are working with and do a lots of practical R&D.

They build a rod and test it, refine it and test it, refine it and test it further until they are happy to broaden the testing to Joe Public. Once this has all went smoothly they will send the product to market, often with great success.

Most of the CAD work happens in Korea, although I know Hardy do a lot of simulations as well. Both of these sources have suffered their fair share of breakages over the years so it shows the CAD and simulation route is not 100% guaranteed to produce the ultimate reliable product. I also remember watching an F1 car under heavy breaking into a corner lose both of its front wheels last season due to catastrophic front suspension failure :eek:

There was a hell of a lot of time and money went into the CAD work on that car and look at the results ;)
 

Fish Napper

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Smashing!!!

Springer,

I have to say, a little bit of knowledge and all that!!!

For someone who was fishing Greys rods a few seasons back, he now seems to have elevated himself to a high level.
The salmon fishing game is very vunerable to people's opinions.:eek::eek::eek:


FishNapper.....
 
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Lohi

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Thanks for sharing this info about fly rod design practises, as I was just guessing how fly rod industry does these things. Obviously, as indicated in my ealier post, fly rod structural behaviour under normal casting load conditions is highly nonlinear, and challenging to analyse using CAE. So the trial and error method may indeed be the best way to tackle these desing issues.

What bothers me is, that each year, most manufacturers put out new rod line-ups, which are so much better (marketing talk) than the previous ones. And yet, no major development has actually happened in carbon fibre technology, and there aren't really that many ways one can make a three piece tapered tube, is there?

Only few manufacturers have had same line-ups for years, and they just make minor changes to the designs. Yet when compared with the "latest tecnological achievements", these oldies do quite well. They weigh the same, cast as long, ... and are lacking the "unforeseen breakages syndrome" certainly.

I guess that the next actual improvement in the fly rod industry would be the nano-tube technology, when they can produce cheap, long nano-tubes.
 

leedsgarth

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CAD design, and marketing

Lohi you used the correct word-
MARKETING, some brands bring out a new range just about every year and try to tell us it is better than the new one they tried to sell you just 12 months ago.

If things are totally new and different,
like on the Guideline Reaction my friend Arne tells me are super dooper (mind you he does work designing and doing demo's for Guideline:)) I can see a point to "NEW"

CAD has part to play in rod design of course but computers cannot see what a Loop Deep Diver line cast badly can do to a rod:D:eek::eek:

I got offered a job about 20 years ago to move to the west coast of USA for a well known rod/tackle brand as a CAD rod/tackle designer but turned it down 'cos the money was crap to move my whole life out there-
I wonder what place in life I would be at now if I had taken it :confused:

LG
 
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