Extreme selfishness

peterchilton

Well-known member
Messages
2,520
Reaction score
1,186
Location
Mid Wales
All the issues are linked. It’s almost like the government knew that we had a pre-existing shortage of HGV drivers but then implemented Brexit along an ideological line to make that worse, not better.
yep the same with Ireland, Germany, France etc?
 

Birkin

Well-known member
Messages
2,968
Reaction score
893
Location
Cheshire
It’s not like I disagree with you on the principles of any of that. Just the timing and execution of it all. I’d have trained our domestic workforce before removing the labour, so our domestic food production continued unhindered, especially important during a global pandemic when supply chains are additionally frustrated by labour issues elsewhere. And not because i have the luxury of hindsight - it’s just basic planning, a numbers game. I genuinely don’t think this is radical leftist socialist thinking. It’s just… common sense? Isn’t it?

Problem: we rely too heavily on cheap foreign labour, but don’t have a trained workforce ready to replace them.

Solution: rip out the labour.

I cannot be the only person that sees the issue with that - and I’m the one that gets accused of being tribal. Some of y’all are blind.
The only problem with your solution is that with the cheap labour still being available which business is going to waste money training a workforce which it will have to pay a higher wage.
My solution with regard to the production, harvesting and delivery of food is to get supermarkets to pay the correct market price instead of systematically screwing producers. They dangle carrots until you are relient on their business and then apply the thumbscrews forcing suppliers to look to trim costs which was easier with a cheap labour force.
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
6,050
Reaction score
2,237
Location
East Lothian
All the issues are linked. It’s almost like the government knew that we had a pre-existing shortage of HGV drivers but then implemented Brexit along an ideological line to make that worse, not better.

That's conspiracy theory stuff! - they're not clever enough!!

Realistically it's just because our leaders are nfg. The same would go for Labour and people like Diane Abbot (lol!!) - or my new favourite commie sheila that Angela Rayner - who's uncontrolled profane outbursts would make a Melbourne docker grin in embarrassment.
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
6,050
Reaction score
2,237
Location
East Lothian
Depends if the Mail exercised selective quoting as most if not all Newspapers (and their online presence) do.

The problem with twitter is that is uses algorithms to see what you are most interested in and serves up variations on the information that you are looking at. Not helpful really. To be truly schizophrenic you need two accounts with different stances.
Do you mean that it actually favours confirmation bias - BY DESIGN???









:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
6,050
Reaction score
2,237
Location
East Lothian
The only problem with your solution is that with the cheap labour still being available which business is going to waste money training a workforce which it will have to pay a higher wage.
My solution with regard to the production, harvesting and delivery of food is to get supermarkets to pay the correct market price instead of systematically screwing producers. They dangle carrots until you are relient on their business and then apply the thumbscrews forcing suppliers to look to trim costs which was easier with a cheap labour force.
That's after they turned the high streets into charity shop arcades
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
3,922
Reaction score
3,012
Location
Cheshire
I’d have trained our domestic workforce before removing the labour, so our domestic food production continued unhindered,

And not because i have the luxury of hindsight - it’s just basic planning, a numbers game. I genuinely don’t think this is radical leftist socialist thinking. It’s just… common sense? Isn’t it?
As you say, basic planning. People make a living out of that.
Not beyond the whit of man, just politicians.

Another issue with training people to do these jobs. There are too many of them busy in university getting degrees so they can answer telephones in call centres (yes, that is a generalisation). Therefore there wont be enough to get the training.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,059
Reaction score
3,559
Problem, the young workforce is sitting watching large screen tv's and playing x box or having babies to up their benefits and the size of house that they can afford.
40% of those claiming benefits are in work. The number of vacancies in this country currently exceeds the number of unemployed people, by about 500,000. You want to thank the entirely invented benefits breeders (less than 1% of benefit recipients have 5 or more children). If we don’t want to import labour but do wish to maintain GDP, we need to breed. Fast. Or get some of the healthy retirees out picking fruit?
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,059
Reaction score
3,559
The only problem with your solution is that with the cheap labour still being available which business is going to waste money training a workforce which it will have to pay a higher wage.
My solution with regard to the production, harvesting and delivery of food is to get supermarkets to pay the correct market price instead of systematically screwing producers. They dangle carrots until you are relient on their business and then apply the thumbscrews forcing suppliers to look to trim costs which was easier with a cheap labour force.
You can legislate harder regarding labour practices. Our government wilfully turns a blind eye to poor labour practices, props the system up with in-work benefits, and then rubs its hands together when the people that voted for it turn on each other for being on benefits on the first place. We should hold them to task. The reason economic migrants choose the uk - not asylum seekers, illegal immigrants - is because it’s easier here than anywhere else in Europe to work off the books and fly under the radar. Our benefits system isn’t more generous than eg France. That’s another myth the government is happy to peddle. We ARE a soft touch - on business. You’re right. While they can access cheap labour, they will. We can clamp down on that any time, just like we can clamp down on huge businesses evading tax any time. But we don’t. Because while the electorate is happy to vilify petrol queuers, loo roll hoarders and benefits claimants, blaming each other for government mismanagement, they can carry on supporting the profits of businesses.

And I’m a business owner so it isn’t like I’m naive to the financial pressures on that side of things, nor the need for government support. But our labour market is our own fault, and it’s easily mended.

Agree re supermarkets. But getting them to pay more would not solve the labour shortage problem. It just facilitates healthier pay for domestic labour. We are 500,000 short on that if every single unemployed person in the UK retrained to work.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,059
Reaction score
3,559
As you say, basic planning. People make a living out of that.
Not beyond the whit of man, just politicians.

Another issue with training people to do these jobs. There are too many of them busy in university getting degrees so they can answer telephones in call centres (yes, that is a generalisation). Therefore there wont be enough to get the training.
Thatcher made good honest manual work seem undesirable. She built a service-based economy that depends on being an integral part of a global trade picture. Making trade more difficult without reversing the decline of domestic production first was stupid and impatient. Kids that once saw their dads come home from the mines or the steel works after an honest day’s work now see them coming home from jobs in IT and yes, call centres. We haven’t modelled to our young people the value of physical labour - indeed, outside of the trades, we’ve deflated its value. Absolutely no wonder no one wants to get up and kill pigs or care for the elderly. Agricultural work is seasonal too. You can’t make a career out of harvest, save enough for a deposit, start a family, on 8 weeks’ work a year. It SUITS migrant labour.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,059
Reaction score
3,559
Did you see the Labour pledge to remove business rates to revive the high street - taxing online retailers instead? It won’t let me reply to ozzy - this is in relation to his charity shop post.
 

Jockiescott

Well-known member
Messages
10,806
Reaction score
6,805
It's a big risk for an employer to train someone too.

I know a company who paid for someones HGV lessons and licence, the safety certificates required for working with home heating oil and all the inductions and everything else necessary to get someone to do the job.

The guy left after three weeks and got a job delivering stones for a quarry in a tipper lorry.
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
3,922
Reaction score
3,012
Location
Cheshire
Agricultural work is seasonal too. You can’t make a career out of harvest, save enough for a deposit, start a family, on 8 weeks’ work a year. It SUITS migrant labour.
I've mentioned before that I've quit the rat race and have a small farm as a hoby.
On the other hand, our daughter chose equine and agraculture as a career which drove my involvement.

There are many people out there who are definitely not afraid to get their hands dirty. She and many of her friends work long hours often 7 days a week.
Many, like her, have 'portfolio careers' with many strings to their bow, much of it seasonal. (This spring she is going to do contract lambing at night. I think that means Mrs SC and I will be doing the night shifts for our ewes. :sleep: )
Unfortunately many see this as beneath them.
In addition, employment laws dont make things easy for this type of worker.
Our daughter had a torrid time trying to source resource for the livery yard she runs. IR35 is an absolute pain.
Some people might do 2 to 5 hours a week or the odd period every few weeks and she is supposed to put them on payroll. Staff turnover is high compounding the problem.

These types of worker should be encouraged not persecuted.
She runs a yard, does private livery work, does part time work at a dairy farm and manages our flock with house sitting and a mirriad other bits and bobs as well.
Her tax return is a nightmare.

Education, education, education has blighted traditional trades and vocational work.

Driving price down has also squeezed these types of roles as has been mentioned.

Our local farm auction (7 miles) has closed down and been sold off for housing. The next closest the same.
We now have to travel 35 miles to market which errodes margin.
Our local abattoir is 5 miles away. If that closes our boxed meat sales wouldnt be viable.
Food production in the UK is getting less and less sustainable for a variety of reasons.
 

Loxie

Well-known member
Messages
11,641
Reaction score
2,786
It's a big risk for an employer to train someone too.

I know a company who paid for someones HGV lessons and licence, the safety certificates required for working with home heating oil and all the inductions and everything else necessary to get someone to do the job.

The guy left after three weeks and got a job delivering stones for a quarry in a tipper lorry.
I have trained a few HGV drivers through my company and am just starting another one. It costs around £7500 each time. I usually make them sign a contract not to drive for anyone else for 5 years but in this case I am taking someone on as an apprentice and the government is paying the full cost of training. The only problem is that there is such a backlog it will take months to get them qualified.
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
3,922
Reaction score
3,012
Location
Cheshire
I have trained a few HGV drivers through my company and am just starting another one. It costs around £7500 each time. I usually make them sign a contract not to drive for anyone else for 5 years but in this case I am taking someone on as an apprentice and the government is paying the full cost of training. The only problem is that there is such a backlog it will take months to get them qualified.
Not just driving, but a company I worked for had contractual clauses whereby any training costs had to be repaid by you on a 3 year glide path if you left after receiving training.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,059
Reaction score
3,559
My fuel light is now on. None of the petrol stations on my route out today (into the centre of Sheffield) were even open. Ffs I’m going to have to join a ridiculous queue at some point, aren’t I?

edit to add I found a miracle station…

8B72D8F8-83F8-49B8-87C7-0E8E7DAF15B1.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Handel

Well-known member
Messages
2,471
Reaction score
836
Location
London
I have trained a few HGV drivers through my company and am just starting another one. It costs around £7500 each time. I usually make them sign a contract not to drive for anyone else for 5 years but in this case I am taking someone on as an apprentice and the government is paying the full cost of training. The only problem is that there is such a backlog it will take months to get them qualified.
Wouldn't be enforceable in court, you would have to use other means of enforcement😊
 
Top