Electric cars not as great as we are lead to believe

peterchilton

Well-known member
Messages
2,505
Reaction score
1,178
Location
Mid Wales
aa emergency charger.jpg
 

budge

Well-known member
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
1,568
Don't bin your vinyl collection, it's making a big comeback. My son and DiL have just spent big money on a Rega deck and amps together with some Sonus Faber speakers. The sound is sublime.
I don't intend doing but might see about flogging them as some are probably worth a few quid. I've a stack of 78s too that I inherited but I don't think there's much value in them

Sent from my CPH2127 using Tapatalk
 

budge

Well-known member
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
1,568
My worry would be, that in theory, the 75 mile range would be adequate, allowing me 37.5m to my destination, which would be enough for most days, however, that range does not include using the heater, window wipers, lights, radio etc. All electrical things we take for granted in our petrol or diesel vehicles, but suddenly, have to factor in to a journey with an EV. On a wet, winter night, the range could end up being half of that quoted.
While I can see some advantages in EV, I think we still have a long way to go, especially with the charging infrastructure. Then of course, Hydrogen could render it all obsolete when that technology advanced too.
From what I gathered off the AA man that recovered me, most EVs have a conventional 12v system for all the ancillary equipment and for energising the high voltage system. He said the main cause of breakdown on them was a dead 12v battery or relay which stops everything.

Sent from my CPH2127 using Tapatalk
 

keirstream

Well-known member
Messages
8,479
Reaction score
5,011
Location
Stirling
They’re getting better. And there’s a new axial flux motor just coming into mass production that will massively accelerate power and efficiency and reduce the need for massive batteries. Have faith.
There is still the problem of the human misey caused by mining lithium cobalt and nickel.
Should we have faith in that.:unsure:
 

Salad Dodger

Well-known member
Messages
485
Reaction score
871
Is Hydrogen not the way forward?

I remember back in the early 2000’s on either Top Gear/Fifth Gear, they were on Honda’s research island with a hydrogen powered car and a system that would fit inside a household garage that you could refuel with.

Was this not viable, even after nearly 20 years?
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,043
Reaction score
3,546
There is still the problem of the human misey caused by mining lithium cobalt and nickel.
Should we have faith in that.:unsure:
Yeah, because as the motors increase in power and efficiency the battery size comes down, they’re already on a path to removing cobalt, it’s expected that by 2040 up to 40% of minerals recovered from batteries can be recycled and reused in the next battery, and real future tech is looking into batteries that don’t use rare Earth minerals. If you guys are expecting to go from ICE to absolutely zero environmental impact, we’ll be waiting another 60 years and continuing to fill the air with emissions and particulates while we wait for perfect to come along. See it as a stepping stone. Today’s EV’s are slightly better for the planet, all things factored in. It’s only going to improve from there, but we need to change lanes. ICE has run out of track, there are no further efficiencies to gain in production series vehicles, we’ll be forever putting £1 worth of energy in and burning 70p of it for nothing other than planetary and lung damage. And we need to do it at some point. Be nice if there was a charging Infrastructure in place at that point, but apparently beggars can’t be choosers.
 

Sawyer

Well-known member
Messages
317
Reaction score
255
We have always had 2 vehicles, pick up 4wd for fishing/shooting/dogs/boats etc & a BMW (I do a fair mileage a year & over the lifetime of the vehicle they worked out the best value for money). 4 years ago I looked into an electric/hybrid vehicle & ended up leasing a Toyota CHR self charging vehicle, having tried all the other contenders that were about at the time. Have been impressed with it up until 3/4 months ago when it went in for a service I explained to the staff that I had noticed that my mpg had reduced by around 25%, they said they would look into it. Upon collecting it & questioning them about the mileage issue they came clean & said that as the battery in the self charging system is nearing 90k miles it is not accepting/holding charge from the drivetrain as it did in the first few years. Basically there is nothing that can be done as the battery can’t be removed or replaced so the car will have to run purely on the petrol engine. Car is 4 years old & really no good for its primary purpose, fortunately it is going back after Xmas, but I am having to wait until next June for the Volvo that is replacing it.
 

Rrrr

Well-known member
Messages
8,528
Reaction score
3,561
Is Hydrogen not the way forward?

I remember back in the early 2000’s on either Top Gear/Fifth Gear, they were on Honda’s research island with a hydrogen powered car and a system that would fit inside a household garage that you could refuel with.

Was this not viable, even after nearly 20 years?
You can now import hydrogen vehicles from japan. Problem is that theres only a few places in the uk to fill them at the moment.
Also i think this could be the way forward for those that need to drive good distances or for comercial vehicles.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk
 

Loxie

Well-known member
Messages
11,627
Reaction score
2,737
Is Hydrogen not the way forward?

I remember back in the early 2000’s on either Top Gear/Fifth Gear, they were on Honda’s research island with a hydrogen powered car and a system that would fit inside a household garage that you could refuel with.

Was this not viable, even after nearly 20 years?
Hydrogen works very well with only water emitted the problem has been in making the hydrogen.


There is still the problem of the human misey caused by mining lithium cobalt and nickel.
Should we have faith in that.:unsure:

There are very large lithium deposits in the North east of England and an emerging mining industry there. That will help but Cobalt is the problem.
 

Salad Dodger

Well-known member
Messages
485
Reaction score
871
You can now import hydrogen vehicles from japan. Problem is that theres only a few places in the uk to fill them at the moment.
Also i think this could be the way forward for those that need to drive good distances or for comercial vehicles.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk
I know Toyota are pushing on with Hydrogen as I’ve chatted with the dealers as my Landcruiser is starting to get tired and the current EV’s aren’t up to towing and off-roading.

I think JCB, John Deere etc are also looking hydrogen for tractors and the like.

If my Landcruiser does gives up, it looks like a hybrid is the only viable option for me at the moment.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,043
Reaction score
3,546
Is Hydrogen not the way forward?

I remember back in the early 2000’s on either Top Gear/Fifth Gear, they were on Honda’s research island with a hydrogen powered car and a system that would fit inside a household garage that you could refuel with.

Was this not viable, even after nearly 20 years?
All I know about hydrogen is that they can’t extract it in an emissions-friendly way - yet. All the processes involved are currently worse for the environment than electric. I think there's potential in using biomass to extract it but they're just words to me - I don't know how you get hydrogen from biomass, but it'd be greener than electric.

I think some manufacturers are exploring hydrogen and battery power combined - not any that I work with though, Toyota is, you're right SD - and hydrogen is looking like the answer for HGVs, but the infrastructure for that is even further behind, and it will again be carbon-intensive setting it up.
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,043
Reaction score
3,546
One of my clients is developing motors for electric flight - there's a tonne of potential in electric, it's just a good few years away yet. But we have to start somewhere.
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
3,907
Reaction score
2,989
Location
Cheshire
, it’s expected that by 2040 up to 40% of minerals recovered from batteries can be recycled and reused in the next battery,
Trust me, I'm a doctor.......

Im a hardened cynic. Not a luddite, just a cynic.
Why wouldnt someone pushing a product and trying to overcome a stumbling block say a solution is 'expected '.
Oh, and 1% is 'up to 40%'. I can hear it now (or maybe not if it's 2040), 'we didnt say it was going to be 40%, just up to'.
Im old enough to remember watching Tomorrow's World. Great insight, plenty of inovation but very few things have come to pass.
EVs are a step forward and should be part of the solution. It isnt a silver bullet. Driving every one in a direction is folly.

Besides being a cynic, Im also an antagonist.
With me, the harder I'm pushed, the slower I move.
And in principle Im never an early adopter.
Engage me, sell the way forward, give me a credible road map and I'll cautiously come on board. Tell me I have to 'because I said so' and I switch off.

We've mentioned it before Saffy, 100 things 1% better.
Eggs and baskets spring to mind.

I also accept that if we shoot for the stars we may reach the moon.

And as has been admitted, productionising solutions is often the problem. They can probably recover 40% of materials in a lab. Might cost 10 times the value of the materials themselves, but target acheived.

Baby steps.
(As an aside, I always smile when politicians say 'this will be a quantum leap forward' given a quantum step is the smallest measurable step in energy in an atom. :unsure: )
 

Safranfoer

Well-known member
Messages
10,043
Reaction score
3,546
Trust me, I'm a doctor.......

Im a hardened cynic. Not a luddite, just a cynic.
Why wouldnt someone pushing a product and trying to overcome a stumbling block say a solution is 'expected '.
Oh, and 1% is 'up to 40%'. I can hear it now (or maybe not if it's 2040), 'we didnt say it was going to be 40%, just up to'.
Im old enough to remember watching Tomorrow's World. Great insight, plenty of inovation but very few things have come to pass.
EVs are a step forward and should be part of the solution. It isnt a silver bullet. Driving every one in a direction is folly.

Besides being a cynic, Im also an antagonist.
With me, the harder I'm pushed, the slower I move.
And in principle Im never an early adopter.
Engage me, sell the way forward, give me a credible road map and I'll cautiously come on board. Tell me I have to 'because I said so' and I switch off.

We've mentioned it before Saffy, 100 things 1% better.
Eggs and baskets spring to mind.

I also accept that if we shoot for the stars we may reach the moon.

And as has been admitted, productionising solutions is often the problem. They can probably recover 40% of materials in a lab. Might cost 10 times the value of the materials themselves, but target acheived.

Baby steps.
(As an aside, I always smile when politicians say 'this will be a quantum leap forward' given a quantum step is the smallest measurable step in energy in an atom. :unsure: )
It isn't the manufacturers driving the 'expectation' around recycling - it's legislation. But also, as everyone has pointed out, there's big money to be made from this. Surely the cynic in you can see the potential for a relatively easy buck here? The problem with recycling isn't the recycling itself - it's taking the batteries apart to get to the minerals. The way they're currently constructed means it's manual and expensive. But that's an easier problem to solve than, we can't recycle these materials.

We have to push everyone in one direction. We can't have a national hydrogen infrastructure, and a national electric infrastructure, and a national plant-oil infrastructure, and traditional fuel stations. And manufacturers can't have an electric plant, a hydrogen plant, a plant-oil plant, an ICE plant... None of the techs would receive the investment they need to get anywhere.

Agree x a billion on credible road map though.
 

salarchaser

Well-known member
Messages
3,907
Reaction score
2,989
Location
Cheshire
It isn't the manufacturers driving the 'expectation' around recycling - it's legislation.
Legislation wont make it happen if it isnt technically possible or financially viable.


On a different topic, I saw a clip of Kay Burley interviewing George Eustace (Secretary of State for the Environment) this morning. He squirmed a bit.

KB - do you have an EV?
GE - err, no, but I catch the train and everybody should do what they can.

KB - do you have a heat pump?
GE - er, no, but we do recycle and everyone should do what they can.

I can live with that. Everyone should do what they can. I do what I can.

However, those in power should set an example or stop setting goals / mandating targets FOR EVERYONE ELSE.
 

ozzyian

Well-known member
Messages
6,043
Reaction score
2,225
Location
East Lothian
The volume ev manufacturers are at the moment making batteries that cannot effectively be recycled*. They also are claiming enormous durability levels for the batteries - well in excess of current consumer (me anyway) expectations.

Instead of lining up the consumers and the planet for the hit on this the first thing any regulatory bodies need to do is make sure that batteries are what the manufacturers claim.

If it's all true make them warranty them in line with their claims instead of the (typical) max of 8 years. Because obviously it looks like the manufacturers actual confidence level in (unrecyclable) batteries will result in absolutely massive environmental harm.

The other option is to compel manufacturers to build in recyclability. It isn't all that hard actually although the batteries will get even bigger and even heavier for the same performance in the short to medium term.

One thing is for certain, any ev that gets sold this afternoon is going to be be very bad for the environment. It has all the hallmarks of the diesel fiasco/disaster at the moment despite the gushings of those looking to take advantage of it. The whole thing is arse about face and I personally wouldn't rely on Elon Musk or anyone making money out of it to steer such a critical and revolutionary change.



* By that I mean economically. Reclaiming the various minerals and materials inside a cell doesn't really look like it has much future afaics. Repurposing or reconditioning of the battery pack is certainly possible but not how they are currently made.
 
Last edited:

williegunn2

Well-known member
Messages
339
Reaction score
289
One of my clients is developing motors for electric flight - there's a tonne of potential in electric, it's just a good few years away yet. But we have to start somewhere.
I think if you re-phrased that it might sound better. Carrying an extra tonne in a plane cannot be that good an idea.
 
Top