Ed Ward casting a Micro Skagit.

(Smolt)

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Cant you see for yourself Liam?

Why don't you have a go at picking out the good and not so good aspects of these casts yourself, let us know what you think and then I will comment later, that way your not just getting the answers on a plate. :)

The option is open to anyone and it could make for an interesting and informative discussion.

Ok! Challenge accepted, I do like putting my neck on the line.

I have only cast my mates skagit setups so I do want to learn/delve a bit more into it all, I don't personally own one.

So I cranked the video up to 720p, opened a tin and peeled my eyes.

Ok number one for me is the unnecessarily forceful snap in the setup, dumps the line so forcefully into the water. Splash! But this is Skagit!:D

His sweep is really compact and close to his body, didn't see much body rotation really, more using just his arms to sweep and form a D loop.

No drift or anything like it after applying the force and sweep to form D loop.

Nearly nearly a blown anchor or two, again not too sure how much "anchor" should be in the water with a Skagit setup, I suppose over powering the forward stroke could be edging the anchor towards blowing, I would think that this depends on how much "stick" the anchor has, perhaps if Ed slowed down both sweep and forward stroke then things might work a bit nicer, although the end result looks good for the given clips and I didn't see a blown anchor.

So for the casts on show is Ed using his power ineffectively and also not relying on his body enough to apply force to the rod? The rod and line is very short though and I would think that the setup would not require a great deal of force to manipulate, so maybe that is why he uses his arms more independently.

Anchor placement quite close to the body on a few occasions too, wouldn't fancy that if a Sean Stanton was on the end of the line.

Maybe a bit top hand dominant in setup and sweep, but hard to tell.

Positives are that he is turning over the leader and looks like he is casting toward his intended target? I think?

Another positive is the dreamy music, SAS in the title and he looks like a cool Mo Fo.

Nit Picking? Definitely.

Open to the floor.
 
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Not a fan of skagit for skagit sake.
Things I dislike about the casts... For a start in the last cast his fly can be seen recoiling back and landing within his line due to excessive power and too tight a loop.
I'm no expert but why use a skagit, a line famed for casting in tight spaces, then try to create a d (v) loop as you would with a carron 75' :confused::confused:
All show and no dough.
 

Springer

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A fierce upstream gust and he'll be wearing that flee as an ear ring :eek::eek:

Micro skagit SAS, whoop the boys in the NW know how to hype stuff.

Im sure he is wise enough to use that cast in a downstream or no wind situation, not something I would be critical of. :)
 

Eminem

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C'mon Rio.....

Anglers! Are you tired of tranquil and peaceful surroundings? Bored with calm and still waters? Is stealth and guile getting you down? Then it's time to try our new Uber-Mega-Skagit. In weights ranging from 6-36kg, castable using only the smallest of JCBs or four of your fishing colleagues and a 32ft rod. Can also be used as a temporary washing line!
Bring it on :cool::eek:
 

Springer

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Ok! Challenge accepted, I do like putting my neck on the line.

I have only cast my mates skagit setups so I do want to learn/delve a bit more into it all, I don't personally own one.

So I cranked the video up to 720p, opened a tin and peeled my eyes.

Good stuff Liam, lets see what we can pick from it all, good and no so.

Ok number one for me is the unnecessarily forceful snap in the setup, dumps the line so forcefully into the water. Splash! But this is Skagit!:D

Agreed - also consider the type of movement chosen to reposition the line, its a snap Z style movement which is short and fast and more difficult (but not impossible) to control the effect it has on the line, as such there is too much energy in that line as it travels to the anchor position and it lands in a mess more than once. A higher than average chance of getting knots in your leader would be one of the problems with this along with too much slack in the line as it lays on the water. The last I heard on Ed's teaching he felt this slack was a benefit, it was proven a good while ago not to be the case, line under various levels of tension is always best than slack. I would have chosen a more circular movement, it would have given a better anchor placement and line lay on the water.

His sweep is really compact and close to his body, didn't see much body rotation really, more using just his arms to sweep and form a D loop.

I can see hip rotation, its subtle but its there. This is a style issue and I have no problems with that, what he does is enough to form a well tensioned d-loop with the length of line he has available to him so no problems for me there.

No drift or anything like it after applying the force and sweep to form D loop.

Is there any need for drift? Yes and no.

The rod is reaching a good place at the end of the sweep and its giving him a long enough casting stroke for the length of line being used and the distance he is casting. His rod position at the 'back stop' is around 45 degrees which is good enough for heads even longer than he is using. Its worth noting he doesn't actually have a back stop as such as he casts in a 'continuous motion' style which again is fine, I use the term back stop to refer to the furthest back point he reaches before making any meaningful movement forward. So in this respect there is no need for drift, I will come back to drift a little later though.

Nearly nearly a blown anchor or two,

The anchor clearly blows at 31 secs and the rest of the time he is right on the edge or we can't see well enough from the angles of the shots. There is a reason he is on the edge a lot, I will cover it later in the post.

not too sure how much "anchor" should be in the water with a Skagit setup

Enough to stop it blowing is the answer, this can vary depending on the density and size of the tip being used, 3'-7' will work in most situations.

I suppose over powering the forward stroke could be edging the anchor towards blowing, I would think that this depends on how much "stick" the anchor has

Thats right, if you have the right amount of anchor in any spey cast (regardless of line length) and its established properly then no amount of overpowering will make it blow. Blown anchors are never the fault of the forward cast, it is always something earlier in the set-up that causes it, the forward cast just exposes it.

perhaps if Ed slowed down both sweep and forward stroke then things might work a bit nicer, although the end result looks good for the given clips

The sweep speed is too fast for me and the angle of incline during the sweep is too shallow for me as well. This shallow angle puts the apex of the d-loop too low and the bottom leg of the d-loop is always too close to the water which means he has to rush through with the forward cast or he will end up with too much line stick. Remember the lower the apex in the d-loop the less time it takes for the bottom leg to drop onto the water.

The cure is a slightly greater incline on the sweep and/or a greater raising/drift (upwards not backwards) of the rod, this would change the d-loop apex position and give more time on the forward cast.

So for the casts on show is Ed using his power ineffectively and also not relying on his body enough to apply force to the rod? The rod and line is very short though and I would think that the setup would not require a great deal of force to manipulate, so maybe that is why he uses his arms more independently.

Arm/body ratio is fine as per my earlier comments but I would agree the style in general is inefficient and there is lots of wasted or excessive effort being used. It can be hard to back right off with such small lightweight rods while using both hands but this cannot be used as an excuse, effort can be tailored correctly.

Anchor placement quite close to the body on a few occasions too, wouldn't fancy that if a Sean Stanton was on the end of the line.

Yes it does come close from a safety point of view be I would say its in the wrong place entirely to make a nice cast and there is a very obvious example of this at 51 secs.

Maybe a bit top hand dominant in setup and sweep, but hard to tell.

I would say his hands look fine, a good way to tell what will be doing what is look at the hand/arm positions at the back stop, his bottom hand is far enough away to be pulled back and he looks like that is what he is doing.

Positives are that he is turning over the leader and looks like he is casting toward his intended target? I think?

Agreed

Nit Picking? Definitely.

The thing with Ed is (as far as Im aware) he has never really put himself forward as a top instructor, he says at the beginning of the original Skagitmaster DVD that the casting won't be pretty but it will be effective in a fishing situation. That said then I wouldn't disagree with him and picking his casting apart online could be considered unfair. Then again people tend to buy these DVD's to learn the right thing so if he isn't perfect then maybe it should be pointed out in case people think it is.

I think anyone selling a fishing/casting DVD should give both the correct technical information but also back it up with the appropriate level of casting. Some do, some don't and sadly the level of fame is no guarantee.

There is nothing trick or special about skagit casting, it adheres to all of the same basic principles as any spey cast. As such those who have learned to spey cast with the longer headed lines and can do it well and usually have less problems adapting to the shorter heads, skagit included. This cannot be said for doing it the other way around, those who learn with short heads alone will find shortcuts that wouldn't be tolerated by a longer line. If all you want to do is fish then short heads are the way to go, if you want to learn to cast properly the longer head is always the greater taskmaster. A combination of learning with both would be the best if you want to become a better than average caster with a more rounded style.

Finally, you have missed a very obvious problem, go back and look at whats happening at 51 secs with the turnover.
 

(Smolt)

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Finally, you have missed a very obvious problem, go back and look at whats happening at 51 secs with the turnover.

Tailing Loop! That was the clip that made me think, Woa! Nearly got a free ear ring from that cast.

So when casting a Skagit, is drift an unnecessary? I see drift as being the turbo that I can add to the engine in my cast. I don't mean to make that sound like I am applying more energy, just that I give myself more potential to perform a better cast.
 

seeking

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Im sure he is wise enough to use that cast in a downstream or no wind situation, not something I would be critical of. :)

The point I thought was that it was too close to the body and behind him, and at 51 secs he nearly got the ear ring, wind or no wind.

However I accept I was talking guff :eek:

Mind, I would have really thought he'd be wise enough to use stealth on trout and not create white horses all the same... perhaps he's searching the elusive "wave surfer" rainbow or cutt.
 
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Eminem

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Bad "bounce back" at 51secs as well :eek:

@Springer & Smolt - nice works gents :cool:
 
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kingfisher

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In those conditions, stealth has to be a priority, more so for the trout, but to cast like that on gin clear water, with no ripple or much water movement, is a joke.

What happened to a nice light full line and tapered leaders and stand back from the quarry some what!!

Be good to know how many he caught that day, apart from ear lobes and hunners of fishermen;);)
 

Springer

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Tailing Loop! That was the clip that made me think, Woa! Nearly got a free ear ring from that cast.

At 51 seconds the end of the line is swinging from side to side and runs the risk of catching on itself. Its not a tailing loop, thats something different altogether and caused by something different to what is causing the problem here.

Look at the angle/position that the anchor is at when he delivers the forward cast, its not facing the target but facing upstream of his intended target by a good 30 degrees or more. When it picks up from the water it has to be pulled into line by the forward travelling loop but as its pulled inline it then travels further and effectively gets into a speed wobble moving from one side to the other rather than traveling straight.

This is a classic example of what happens by not having your d-loop and anchor in line and directly facing your target, pretty basic stuff really.

So when casting a Skagit, is drift an unnecessary? I see drift as being the turbo that I can add to the engine in my cast. I don't mean to make that sound like I am applying more energy, just that I give myself more potential to perform a better cast.

Drift is less import and with shorter heads but if used appropriately can do no ham.

Drift does a few things, it increases stroke length which in turn gives you a longer time/distance to load the rod smoothly and more deeply, in turn this gives longer more efficient casts or allows us to cast longer lines more easily. The other thing it does is buy you time, you can't be creeping forwards if your drifting backwards so it ensures you don't lose valuable stroke length and lastly it gives you the option of a longer translation stage, the bit where the rod starts to move in a forward direction but without the angle of the rod changing, thats the time when rotation starts. Again this longer translation helps with further tensioning of the d-loop and bending the rod in a way that is conducive to creating the all important SLP (straight line path) of the rod tip which gives you the tight loops.
 

(Smolt)

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At 51 seconds the end of the line is swinging from side to side and runs the risk of catching on itself. Its not a tailing loop, thats something different altogether and caused by something different to what is causing the problem here.

Ok, I thought a tailing loop was when this happened, what would you call this problem then? I remember it was an issue of mine and at times can still be an issue on my weaker left side.
 
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