east arkengarthdale estate in north yorkshire

[marty31]

a ping on my email last week brought yet another disgraceful incident concerning grouse moors to light
"in December 2014 the rspb investigation team observed then uncovered a illegal buried poison cache, incredibly nobody was prosecuted for this illegal stash and despite the best efforts of the north Yorkshire police the gamekeeper who had admitted using the poisons cache had his
firearms certificates returned to him.
several organisations within the grouse shooting industry have been asked a number of questions about the case but as yet none have been answered.
now the question arises, whether east arkengarthdale estate ltd received any agricultural subsidies that year? and if so, will the conformation that the gamekeeper was using the illegal poisons cache, constitute a cross compliance breach of any subsidy penalty?
according to company house records, east arkengarthdale estates ltd have two directors, eric axel lennart torstenson and mrs anita Ingrid linnea torstenson, and according to the cap payments website, all but £250000.00 was paid out in 2015, a few questions seem to arise here?
1is this public money getting spent wisely, considering the circumstances?
2does this reinforce the question of the need for licences for moors that stick to the law
3 when will vicarious liability become law in England? because there are signs that its working in Scotland
and lastly, totally unconnected, a shot peregrine falcon was found on this estate months later, Yorkshire is now become a raptor black hole dead zone, shame on you east arkengarthdale

 

[Taddy]

shocker-country side abuse

i been saying for yrs the very ppl who shout conservation can be the very ppl who are breaking the laws of the land and the laws of nature,same lot shout "fly only" in the fishing world,same lot are as corrupt as the next man,same lot like to smear other people,same lot divert whats really happening when falcons are being shot,mostly likely by their keepers...........not a very nice lot from my personal experiences, not what yer would call a nice "Lot".

 

[flyman]

Allegations with no convictions.are you sure you want to have your name connected with this because 1 thing is for sure.If the owners of this forum are asked for your ID in a libel case they will deliver it.So it may be in your interest to edit your posts.Or the owners might just do it for you.

 

[mows]

Allegations with no convictions.are you sure you want to have your name connected with this because 1 thing is for sure.If the owners of this forum are asked for your ID in a libel case they will deliver it.So it may be in your interest to edit your posts.Or the owners might just do it for you.

There may be no conviction in this case, but there also wasn't any doubt. The probable lack of conviction was the way the evidence was found.
Vicarious liability, licencing and removal of subsidies for bad estates would soon cure it, and would do no harm what so ever to law abiding estates.
The Dales seem to be above the law.
Possibly the worst police force in the UK.

 

[Single Hander]

Not really bothered about grouse moors but know they support and provide income for our country cousins. As far as I am concerned the RSPB will always be a thorn in the side of salmon anglers and try to stop cull licenses for the birds which are causing devastation on my local river.....I do not get a boner if I see a raptor when out salmon fishing but feel the countryside custodians should be left to run their estates as they see fit ..too many city tree hungers who bring no money to rural economy dictating their **** on the countryside estates. Shooting estates should be able to control raptor numbers as they see fit and if tree hugging estates want to stop shooting and be run by the RSPB then fair enough...

Anyway enough said and I should not be typing when full of festive spirits.

 

[SP8]

I live in the "black hole for raptors".Funnily enough it's lifting with them round here. Don't tar everybody with the same brush just because there are some bad ones.


SP8

 

[marty31]

Not really bothered about grouse moors but know they support and provide income for our country cousins. As far as I am concerned the RSPB will always be a thorn in the side of salmon anglers and try to stop cull licenses for the birds which are causing devastation on my local river.....I do not get a boner if I see a raptor when out salmon fishing but feel the countryside custodians should be left to run their estates as they see fit ..too many city tree hungers who bring no money to rural economy dictating their **** on the countryside estates. Shooting estates should be able to control raptor numbers as they see fit and if tree hugging estates want to stop shooting and be run by the RSPB then fair enough...

Anyway enough said and I should not be typing when full of festive spirits.

theres not much about the rspb that I like either, 60% of what they do I disagree with, but is a illegal poison cache not illegal? and as far as I am aware non of this has got anything to do with salmon fishing, country shooting estates should be trusted to run their estates as they see fit as long as it also is within the law, public money has to been seen to be spent properly, therefore if its not, should be stopped, the law should apply to everyone, including estate company directors.

 

[marty31]

Allegations with no convictions.are you sure you want to have your name connected with this because 1 thing is for sure.If the owners of this forum are asked for your ID in a libel case they will deliver it.So it may be in your interest to edit your posts.Or the owners might just do it for you.

why wouldn't I want my name connected with this? the gamekeeper admitted the charges, anyway, its a copy of a public email, so how would that make me libel? I very much doubt that its in east arkengarthdales interests to pursue a libel case against me, but if they want to, bring it on

 

[castor]

............ to pursue a libel case against me, but if they want to, bring it on

I think that anyone who 'spreads the word' - on the evidence at hand - is quite open to the bringing of a defamation action. Even if one won the case costs would not necessarily follow....could be expensive even to 'win'!

[Have they carried out forensic tests on the 'stash', including fingerprinting and DNA? Likewise suspects?]

 

[Tyke]

I think the point of subsidy payments etc is primarily to allow public access over private land so hikers, ramblers or even just a family out for a casual walk can enjoy walking over beautiful countryside.

The land is owned privately & having to allow access to the public degrades the ability to use the land as efficiently as possible so much of the subsidies are to compensate for this & allow continued public access.

If these were removed then up go the fences & it's "gerroff my land" time.

You can't partially nationalise something, such as permitting public access to privately owned land, without compensating the owners accordingly.

So if the owners are guilty of a wildlife crime (even if only vicariously due the actions of an employee) then they could be prosecuted & fined accordingly; but I don't see how the subsidy could be withheld as this relates to so much more than just wildlife preservation (by which obviously a very narrow view of wildlife -i.e. "Raptors" is apparently taken) in terms of total benefits to the greater public.

Regards, Tyke.

 

[Roag Fisher]

I would like to know when the poison was buried?
Did the keeper admit to using the poison 20 years ago but buried it instead of disposing of it as required by law (nowadays)?
With regard to agricultural subsidies, I would expect RSPB to hand back all their handouts since a dead raptor was found on one of their reserves....or since one of their main men had a picnic under a raptors nest (possibly in the "raptor black hole"?

The RSPB and the whole truth tend to be strangers...

 

[Loxie]

I think the original post comes from a website called "Raptor Persecution UK" not the RSPB. The two organisations are unconnected. Raptor Persecution UK is a single issue site dedicated to publishing allegations of raptor persecution, RSPB has a rather wider remit. I have no details on the particular allegations made but I find it strange that if the law was broken and liability admitted that the CPS didn't prosecute. I suspect that due to the extremely one sided nature of the organisation publishing the allegation that there are a number of details missing.

By the way should this not be in the lounge?

 

[Hemmy]

I think the original post comes from a website called "Raptor Persecution UK" not the RSPB. The two organisations are unconnected. Raptor Persecution UK is a single issue site dedicated to publishing allegations of raptor persecution, RSPB has a rather wider remit. I have no details on the particular allegations made but I find it strange that if the law was broken and liability admitted that the CPS didn't prosecute. I suspect that due to the extremely one sided nature of the organisation publishing the allegation that there are a number of details missing.

By the way should this not be in the lounge?

Or better still in the Bin.

 

[simon grace]

Yorkshire is now become a raptor black hole dead zone

Thats a big claim and one that total shyte..Not surprising coming from you though.
What do you know about Yorkshire Grouse Moors? Have you ever heard the saying "Don't tar everyone with the same brush??"
What a ridiculous thread and one that wants removing.It's like reading a story from The Daily Sport.That said thats an insult to a Daily Sport reporter.
Anyway I'll let you get back to keeping the bed warm for Chris Packham.

 

[simon grace]

Or better still in the Bin.

Like button clicked 50 times but its only registered the one like..

 

[simon grace]

i been saying for yrs the very ppl who shout conservation can be the very ppl who are breaking the laws of the land and the laws of nature

If the cap fits but then again probably 2 sizes too big in your case..

 

[simon grace]

It makes me laugh all these do gooders who are the first to pull keepers for some indiscriminate unproven act that they read about when they had an email "pinged" to them but the same people think it's OK to partially rip a Salmons lip off while its fighting for its life on the end off a fishing line then slip it back into the river afterwards and all in the name of fun.
I have no time for those who fit into that catagory and theres two on here that should have medals for it!!

 

[stuckinlondon]

Vicarious liability exists in the whole of the UK, not just Scotland
Just thought we might as well stick with the facts.....
It might be worthwhile disclosing the origin of the original post too; just so we know who we are dealing with

 

[Loxie]

Vicarious liability exists in the whole of the UK, not just Scotland
Just thought we might as well stick with the facts.....
It might be worthwhile disclosing the origin of the original post too; just so we know who we are dealing with

Raptor Persecution UK

 

[simon grace]

Raptor Persecution UK

Might as well be the Monster Raving Looney Party

 

[Loxie]

Might as well be the Monster Raving Looney Party

I'm not sure they would be the first stop for an unbiased report.

 

[marty31]

Raptor Persecution UK

yes loxie right first time, not the infamous RSPB their investigation team observed the gamekeeper using the cache, and when interviewed the GK fully admitted hiding and using it, it was a shameful day for the industry and there' really not much to be said to justify it.

 

[Loxie]

yes loxie right first time, not the infamous RSPB their investigation team observed the gamekeeper using the cache, and when interviewed the GK fully admitted hiding and using it, it was a shameful day for the industry and there' really not much to be said to justify it.

I would agree that there is nothing to be said to defend the illegal use of poison. I can't understand why he was not prosecuted?

 

[marty31]

Thats a big claim and one that total shyte..Not surprising coming from you though.
What do you know about Yorkshire Grouse Moors? Have you ever heard the saying "Don't tar everyone with the same brush??"
What a ridiculous thread and one that wants removing.It's like reading a story from The Daily Sport.That said thats an insult to a Daily Sport reporter.
Anyway I'll let you get back to keeping the bed warm for Chris Packham.

the last time I heard from you simon, you sent me a threating PM then bragged that I could not answer you as I was now on your ignore list, do you do this with everybody that disagrees with your posts? how do you know that the allegation is shyte? (your words) I think its just a case of throwing simons toys out of his pram because he doesn't want to hear anything bad about the Yorkshire moors, anyway whats ridiculous about the thread? other than the fact, that you don't want to know anything about it, and why remove it? what happens now simon? more hot air threats or back to the ignore list? your right about packham though, his poster is above my bed, and by the way dr mark avery has just won a conservation award, well done mark, I would say

 

[mows]

yes loxie right first time, not the infamous RSPB their investigation team observed the gamekeeper using the cache, and when interviewed the GK fully admitted hiding and using it, it was a shameful day for the industry and there' really not much to be said to justify it.

It was an incredible stroke of luck that the RSPB inspector went for a 7 mile walk to an old, no longer used crow trap and came upon a jar of burried poison. I think that incredible coincidence may have hampered any prosecution. Odds are, they were illegally filming the site.
Doesn't take away the fact, the keeper was using poison and doing his best to help get shooting banned.
Strange, how the dislike isn't pointed in that direction.

Cheers

Mows