Covid Injection

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fixedspool

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771,500 vaccinated yesterday.
manic down the leisure centre again

To date not a single reactor in the 15 min waiting zone in 2.5 months.

The ‘shortage’ means we will be doing only around 300’000 a day for a couple of weeks

How many of the moaning minnies on here would have scoffed at the idea we could deliver 300,000 a day let alone +750k? Now they snipe at the ‘shortage’.

This nationalism re who gets and doesn’t get the jab is dangerous. Until take up is global and the proportion inoculated high the U.K. citizens remain at risk. It’s senseless to argue the EU, or anywhere else should wait or shouldn’t get it. The higher the prevelance the virus. This higher the mutation rate and the higher the chance of a mutation that is much more dangerous, more infectious and against which the vaccine fails.

As of yesterday, for an example of the problem, only 80,000 had been vaccinated in South Africa in total. 23 countries in Africa have no vaccine at all. Many African nations are pledged small numbers of vaccine- in the hundreds of thousands- from COVAX and from China.
A globally coordinated 10 year vaccination programme targeted at the places of most need would be the best way forward for us all. Sharing.
The alternative is that we lock the doors, pull up the shutters and isolate the U.K. no travel. extreme measures on import/export shut the ports, termini, airspace etc and watch.
Well I hear your exultation Hoddom as you jab away down at the leisure centre. However perhaps you could have been more gainfully employed had you instead addressed the fact that many of the people you jabbed probably didn't need it and may well have had other diagnosed or probably undiagnosed serious life threatening condition that they cannot at the moment get treatment for from the NHS. Hundreds of thousands are being denied treatment due to the mad race to vaccinate everything that moves. Perhaps you might wipe your brow and pause to reflect on people with that dilemma. No one should be denied treatmet esoecially if it's life threatening. For many especially in younger age groups are not are they.
I note too that there were demonstrations around the world against the ridiculously extreme measure we are having to endure with 80,000 of so demonstrating in London. Even the BBC reported it. Seem some are beginning to wake up at last.
 

Safranfoer

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No, that is not correct. We stay open every year despite the fact that the flu vaccine take up worldwide is not what it needs to be to fully protect us. Flu mutates far more often than Covid and we need different flu vaccines every year. Yet we live with it. It's what we do.
At some point, we need to grow some balls and accept that people die so that we can live our lives without restriction. We can't let fear of the unknown govern what we are and are not allowed to do.
I don’t know whether I agree or not. Flu being different to covid. But if you look at what is happening, it IS correct in terms of the approach we are taking. The trajectory we are on.

I’m still of a mind to believe that the reason we are doing this isn’t because we lack balls or haven’t noticed that flu is always around and mutating. I believe it’s because the virus poses sufficient a threat to collapse our healthcare system, in full sight of all the knowledge. They have more informed people than us on this.
 

peterchilton

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Well I hear your exultation Hoddom as you jab away down at the leisure centre. However perhaps you could have been more gainfully employed had you instead addressed the fact that many of the people you jabbed probably didn't need it and may well have had other diagnosed or probably undiagnosed serious life threatening condition that they cannot at the moment get treatment for from the NHS. Hundreds of thousands are being denied treatment due to the mad race to vaccinate everything that moves. Perhaps you might wipe your brow and pause to reflect on people with that dilemma. No one should be denied treatmet esoecially if it's life threatening. For many especially in younger age groups are not are they.
I note too that there were demonstrations around the world against the ridiculously extreme measure we are having to endure with 80,000 of so demonstrating in London. Even the BBC reported it. Seem some are beginning to wake up at last.
80,000? Is that all. Is the poor turn out due to apathy or is it just that not many people agree with the people that have convinced you?
 

pol_angler

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What a load of BS. Current spike in new Covid cases in Europe is caused by UK variant (thanks Britain!), bugger all to do with vaccination.

Long weeks ago when new infections were in low thousands in Poland, I predicted 30k/day once UK variant hits Europe. I predicted that despite all over 80s, teachers, all public sectors workers been already vaccinated with double dose of Pfizer at the time.

Should there be another variant, there will be another spike in EU, UK and everywhere else.
 

fixedspool

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80,000? Is that all. Is the poor turn out due to apathy or is it just that not many people agree with the people that have convinced you?
That's where the difference lies. No one has convinced me about anything, I make my own mind up on the evidence, or lack of it that's out there.
You on the other hand believe oll the establishment crap and vaccine data thats pumped out on a daily basis ( oh and also on saffy's endless pontificating) and rejoice in your jab which I suspect many are now reflecting on with all the controversy of vaccine effectiveness.
Be that as it may time will tell, if not short term then long term. You don't seriously suggest that we will come out of this draconian lockdown in the short term, Covid 19 or not.
Why is it odd it started at Dover -no one knows for sure anyway do they. There were demostration in other UK cities too but what the hell, they are all deluded. Wake up.
Please give me a 'like' saffy. o_O
 

Walleye

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I don’t know whether I agree or not. Flu being different to covid. But if you look at what is happening, it IS correct in terms of the approach we are taking. The trajectory we are on.

I’m still of a mind to believe that the reason we are doing this isn’t because we lack balls or haven’t noticed that flu is always around and mutating. I believe it’s because the virus poses sufficient a threat to collapse our healthcare system, in full sight of all the knowledge. They have more informed people than us on this.
Flu would also collapse our healthcare system every winter if it were not for the flu vaccine.
We have a vaccine now for Covid.

It is incredibly expensive to set up a seasonal NHS so it is more cost effective to manage seasonality with vaccines for diseases like flu and covid.

Which is what we are now doing with Covid, just like we did with flu.

We are 12 months on from the first lockdown. We know that lockdown was effective. Now with 50% of the adult population vaccinated, that alone is probably more effective than the march 23rd 2020 lockdown.
We have fewer cases, hospital admissions and deaths than September last year and we were far more open then than we are now. The R number is way down. Summer is coming. Hospitals are not under any risk of being overrun.

I mean really, what are we worrying about that we can't open up until June 20th? I know the answer to that....politicians jobs.

Trust the science. Be brave. Politicoans should be leading us out of this, not dipping their toe in every few weeks and saying "if we screw up we'll lose our jobs for sure".
 

Hoddom

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Well I hear your exultation Hoddom as you jab away down at the leisure centre. However perhaps you could have been more gainfully employed had you instead addressed the fact that many of the people you jabbed probably didn't need it and may well have had other diagnosed or probably undiagnosed serious life threatening condition that they cannot at the moment get treatment for from the NHS. Hundreds of thousands are being denied treatment due to the mad race to vaccinate everything that moves. Perhaps you might wipe your brow and pause to reflect on people with that dilemma. No one should be denied treatmet esoecially if it's life threatening. For many especially in younger age groups are not are they.
I note too that there were demonstrations around the world against the ridiculously extreme measure we are having to endure with 80,000 of so demonstrating in London. Even the BBC reported it. Seem some are beginning to wake up at last.
Of course this is nonsense. 100,000 are not excluded from treatment and dying because volunteers are vaccinating people. Of course the NHS is still treating people and operations go ahead. Just like my wife’s on 6 April for a new hip. Trotting out tropes is old hat.
 

Walleye

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What a load of BS. Current spike in new Covid cases in Europe is caused by UK variant (thanks Britain!), bugger all to do with vaccination.

Long weeks ago when new infections were in low thousands in Poland, I predicted 30k/day once UK variant hits Europe. I predicted that despite all over 80s, teachers, all public sectors workers been already vaccinated with double dose of Pfizer at the time.

Should there be another variant, there will be another spike in EU, UK and everywhere else.
Worn on pretty much every count.
 

Hoddom

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80,000? Is that all. Is the poor turn out due to apathy or is it just that not many people agree with the people that have convinced you?
south africa haven’t got any vaccine to give. just supply, not supply and demand.
perhaps, had vaccine been more equitably shared the SA variant wouldn’t have arisen and the chaos it created may have been avoided.

Hummm maybe.
 

fixedspool

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Of course this is nonsense. 100,000 are not excluded from treatment and dying because volunteers are vaccinating people. Of course the NHS is still treating people and operations go ahead. Just like my wife’s on 6 April for a new hip. Trotting out tropes is old hat.
Are you in the real world. NHS has massive waiting lists according to those who should know and which will take years to address. people are scared to visit A&E or hospital in general as they have been a huge infection source and many doctors surgeries remain closed as they try to diagnose patients over the phone. Its a joke and you should know it.
 

Safranfoer

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Flu would also collapse our healthcare system every winter if it were not for the flu vaccine.
We have a vaccine now for Covid.

It is incredibly expensive to set up a seasonal NHS so it is more cost effective to manage seasonality with vaccines for diseases like flu and covid.

Which is what we are now doing with Covid, just like we did with flu.

We are 12 months on from the first lockdown. We know that lockdown was effective. Now with 50% of the adult population vaccinated, that alone is probably more effective than the march 23rd 2020 lockdown.
We have fewer cases, hospital admissions and deaths than September last year and we were far more open then than we are now. The R number is way down. Summer is coming. Hospitals are not under any risk of being overrun.

I mean really, what are we worrying about that we can't open up until June 20th? I know the answer to that....politicians jobs.

Trust the science. Be brave. Politicoans should be leading us out of this, not dipping their toe in every few weeks and saying "if we screw up we'll lose our jobs for sure".
I agree with all of that in theory. It just doesn’t seem to be playing out that way. I don’t believe that this is timidity on the part of world government. Fear of losing their jobs. I think that I don’t have full visibility of all the facts to make those kinds of decisions.
 

carrowmore

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771,500 vaccinated yesterday.
manic down the leisure centre again

To date not a single reactor in the 15 min waiting zone in 2.5 months.

The ‘shortage’ means we will be doing only around 300’000 a day for a couple of weeks

How many of the moaning minnies on here would have scoffed at the idea we could deliver 300,000 a day let alone +750k? Now they snipe at the ‘shortage’.

This nationalism re who gets and doesn’t get the jab is dangerous. Until take up is global and the proportion inoculated high the U.K. citizens remain at risk. It’s senseless to argue the EU, or anywhere else should wait or shouldn’t get it. The higher the prevelance the virus. This higher the mutation rate and the higher the chance of a mutation that is much more dangerous, more infectious and against which the vaccine fails.

As of yesterday, for an example of the problem, only 80,000 had been vaccinated in South Africa in total. 23 countries in Africa have no vaccine at all. Many African nations are pledged small numbers of vaccine- in the hundreds of thousands- from COVAX and from China.
A globally coordinated 10 year vaccination programme targeted at the places of most need would be the best way forward for us all. Sharing.
The alternative is that we lock the doors, pull up the shutters and isolate the U.K. no travel. extreme measures on import/export shut the ports, termini, airspace etc and watch.

Good on you Hoddom . I hope you are rewarded with some big bars of silver this season : )


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Handel

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Didn't the UK variant come from the EU, across the channel? Its odd that it started in Dover and not London or Birmingham etc?
Spanish flu in 1918 was so called because they didn't have censorship to prevent their newspapers writing about it. It was present all over the place and no-one knows where it started but because there was so much in the Spanish press about it people began to believe that it started there.

As you say no-one knows where the UK variant started but because the UK does more analysis of the variants than anyone else the UK found it. It isn't necessarily the case that it started in one place even. Good point about Dover, bit of a coincidence if it started there.
 

offshore

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Exactly my point. UK has a great opportunity to vaccinate itself and the rest of the world.
The vaccine rollout was always going to be a smash and grab by the countries who are both rich and capable...China, USA, Russia, EU, UK.
The thought that we should give vaccines to the EU or slow down our supply to help them out is as strange and wierd as saying we should do the same for China, or the USA, or Russia. We have to get to the point where we can open up fully and get back to normal then keep our pedal to the floor in supplying vaccine to the rest of the world who are not rich or capable.
But you are comparing apples with oranges.

USA, China and Russia have not being supplying us with any vaccine - none.

The EU has been supplying us with vaccine since the 8th of December. We are takers, not givers.
 

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Occasional salmon fisher

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It seems to me that mutations and variations of viruses occur all the time. Exactly where they occur is largely a matter of luck although I guess the more cases there are in a country the greater the chance of more mutations and therefore a greater chance of a successful mutation with competitive advantage.
 

Handel

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But you are comparing apples with oranges.

USA, China and Russia have not being supplying us with any vaccine - none.

The EU has been supplying us with vaccine since the 8th of December. We are takers, not givers.
The EU hasn't been supplying us with vaccine either. The drug companies have been producing vaccine in the EU for delivery to the UK. Normal trade. And could that vaccine have been produced in the EU without importing components from elsewhere in the world? No. And some of those components come from the USA.
 

fixedspool

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Good on you Hoddom . I hope you are rewarded with some big bars of silver this season : )


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Well there you go from the medical profession. Bars of silver in the outlook. Well good for you.
Just remembers the poor sods with no jobs, no prospects, unable to pay the mortgage or feed their children. All the business going bust never to be seen again. The country in deep debt from which it will take years to recover, if ever. All those too who need serious medical help NOW while you jab away. You disgust me.

Oh and the person yesterday who showed me his recent OAP pension update which ended with the words.
"You will receive an extra 25 pence per WEEK when you reach 80." Reflect on that if you have any conscience whatsoever.?."
 
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offshore

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The EU hasn't been supplying us with vaccine either. The drug companies have been producing vaccine in the EU for delivery to the UK. Normal trade. And could that vaccine have been produced in the EU without importing components from elsewhere in the world? No. And some of those components come from the USA.
OK. I will rephrase.

The EU have not blocked exports of vaccine to us, in the same way the USA has blocked exports of vaccines to us.

I personally grateful to the German taxpayers, for their contribution to the development of this new vaccine technology.
 

Handel

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OK. I will rephrase.

The EU have not blocked exports of vaccine to us, in the same way the USA has blocked exports of vaccines to us.

I personally grateful to the German taxpayers, for their contribution to the development of this new vaccine technology.
I am not sure of the exact order of events but I believe the first major investment came from Fosun in China, then Pfizer, then the EU/EIB and then the German state though Germany did put up a very great deal of money. Pfizer had the good sense to keep away from the Trump project. A great multinational project.

The Oxford work was almost wholly paid for by UK taxpayers and Oxford have insisted that the vaccine is sold at cost which is why it is so much cheaper than the Pfizer vaccine and why AZ are involved. I have had the Oxford jab so I am fairly grateful to UK taxpayers.

As Pfizer have made plain to the EU they can't make their vaccine without a component produced in the UK.

The EU screwed up over their procurement and are still in denial about it. There is no such denial in Germany I gather. Particularly given their participation in the development of the Pfizer vaccine, they are simply furious.
 

offshore

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We won’t be able to open up fully and get back to normal until the world is vaccinated though, walleye. Not unless we keep the borders closed.

We will have to adopt the Australian model fully in the end, unless we want to spend the next two winters in our current version of an open prison.

The news programs love to show pictures of anguished people, distressed that the foreign holiday they have booked in a pandemic may not actually happen. For that reason, I am not sure what the plan will be.

Apologies for all text below, but its quite good:

Europe's "hopeless" response to Covid-19 has meant Britain risks the South African strain "flooding in the back door" when travel resumes, making it impossible for vaccines to curb the spread of the virus, a leading member of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine team has said.

Sir John Bell was speaking days after the Government attempted to pour cold water on concerns that a third wave of the virus could hit Britain when more people start travelling to different countries.

The Oxford University's regius professor of medicine and Government life sciences champion said a major failure in Europe was the lack of genome sequencing to tell which variants are spreading where. He said the continent had "no idea what's going on". "They're hopeless. Completely hopeless. It's really not going well in Europe."

Figures late last week suggested that France in particular was seeing a much higher proportion of the South African strain among its Covid-19 cases than Britain, of between 5 and 10pc, meaning as many as 3,000 cases. In the UK, around 259 South Africa strain cases have been recorded.

Whilst there is no definitive data yet on whether the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines work against the South African strain, experts believe the vaccines will be able to stop severe cases.

However, Sir John said the goal was to also reduce transmissions with moderate and mild disease, reducing the R-rate and ultimately leading the virus to die out.

 

offshore

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I am not sure of the exact order of events but I believe the first major investment came from Fosun in China, then Pfizer, then the EU/EIB and then the German state though Germany did put up a very great deal of money. Pfizer had the good sense to keep away from the Trump project. A great multinational project.

The Oxford work was almost wholly paid for by UK taxpayers and Oxford have insisted that the vaccine is sold at cost which is why it is so much cheaper than the Pfizer vaccine and why AZ are involved. I have had the Oxford jab so I am fairly grateful to UK taxpayers.

As Pfizer have made plain to the EU they can't make their vaccine without a component produced in the UK.

The EU screwed up over their procurement and are still in denial about it. There is no such denial in Germany I gather. Particularly given their participation in the development of the Pfizer vaccine, they are simply furious.
I don't doubt anything you have written, but none of it gives me any reason to treat the EU as some sort of enemy.

I do remember Trump holding a press conference very early on (on the whitehouse lawn) - bringing together all the drug / vaccine manufacturers and instigating a vaccine taskforce. My memory doesn't fail me on that - credit were credit is due.

If the Oxford Vaccine work was paid for by the UK taxpayer, why has India been given the technology free gratis and we now having to grovel for a few million doses late in the day?

If the UK vaccine operation is so smart, why didnt we swap our technology for a percentage of Indian manufacture - we could all be vaccinated by now and still on good terms with the EU, had we done so.

We are currently boasting how smart we are, but I suspect we have been mugs. Just a thought.
 

Handel

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I don't doubt anything you have written, but none of it gives me any reason to treat the EU as some sort of enemy.

I do remember Trump holding a press conference very early on (on the whitehouse lawn) - bringing together all the drug / vaccine manufacturers and instigating a vaccine taskforce. My memory doesn't fail me on that - credit were credit is due.

If the Oxford Vaccine work was paid for by the UK taxpayer, why has India been given the technology free gratis and we now having to grovel for a few million doses late in the day?

If the UK vaccine operation is so smart, why didnt we swap our technology for a percentage of Indian manufacture - we could all be vaccinated by now and still on good terms with the EU, had we done so.

We are currently boasting how smart we are, but I suspect we have been mugs. Just a thought.
Me neither, I have life long friends in France and Germany, relations in Spain and English friends who spend much of their lives in Italy. I feel sorry for all of them being let down by the bureaucracy in Brussels and the hapless, hopeless Von der Leyen and her cohorts. As you say, Trump ran rings round her and them, because he gets business which she does not. What I find distasteful is that she is still lying about the contents of a contract which is now in the public domain, so that we can all see she is lying.

India hasn't been given anything. You are conflating countries and companies again. The Serum Institute in India is one of the world's great manufacturers of vaccines and they are the ones producing AZ vaccine to vaccinate the world at a sensible price. It is the whole point of the Oxford vaccine being sold at cost. (I am going to go on making that point until people on here get it.). Most of the world can't afford the other vaccines. What has happened is that India with its vast population has suggested that quite a lot of that vaccine should stay in India. They are right, so it should.

Cost. The reason AZ don't want to send vaccine from the UK to the EU is that vaccine is expensive to produce in the UK and the price agreed with the EU would result in a loss. Sold to the UK it does not produce a loss. The sub contractor in Belgium was supposed to fulfill a large part of the EU order. AZ have found out why they were cheap, they are not very good. Don't forget this is AZ's first foray into the world of vaccines, and they are learning as they go along. They still got their contract with the hopeless EU right.

As for your final thought, I think you need to have a rethink. And while you are about it think about the 7 million lots of vaccine sat in the EU doing nothing. This is a world problem and the behaviour of EU "leaders" has been that of spoilt brats.
 

Walleye

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We will have to adopt the Australian model fully in the end, unless we want to spend the next two winters in our current version of an open prison.

The news programs love to show pictures of anguished people, distressed that the foreign holiday they have booked in a pandemic may not actually happen. For that reason, I am not sure what the plan will be.

Apologies for all text below, but its quite good:

Europe's "hopeless" response to Covid-19 has meant Britain risks the South African strain "flooding in the back door" when travel resumes, making it impossible for vaccines to curb the spread of the virus, a leading member of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine team has said.

Sir John Bell was speaking days after the Government attempted to pour cold water on concerns that a third wave of the virus could hit Britain when more people start travelling to different countries.

The Oxford University's regius professor of medicine and Government life sciences champion said a major failure in Europe was the lack of genome sequencing to tell which variants are spreading where. He said the continent had "no idea what's going on". "They're hopeless. Completely hopeless. It's really not going well in Europe."

Figures late last week suggested that France in particular was seeing a much higher proportion of the South African strain among its Covid-19 cases than Britain, of between 5 and 10pc, meaning as many as 3,000 cases. In the UK, around 259 South Africa strain cases have been recorded.

Whilst there is no definitive data yet on whether the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines work against the South African strain, experts believe the vaccines will be able to stop severe cases.

However, Sir John said the goal was to also reduce transmissions with moderate and mild disease, reducing the R-rate and ultimately leading the virus to die out.

Exactly this is becoming a pet hate of mine. The only thing the vaccine needs to do is prevent serious illness requiring hospitalisation. At the moment, every vaccine does so with every known variant. Hence the sentence in blue and hence the story is an absolute non-story.

It doesn't matter how many people get Covid of whatever strain. It only matters if large numbers get so ill they need hospital treatment.

The approved vaccines are around 80% effective at preventing infection, but near 100% effective at preventing serious illness of all known variants.

The vaccines have turned Covid-19 into the common cold. This is what the science and the facts are telling us.

More and more are talking about new variants and eradication. It's project fear in a very big and naughty way. If we are going to sit in our homes all next winter because some fnckwit in the media or some spineless politician worried about his job is afraid to let us all get on with our lives in case some scary unknown unknown might happen then they can **** right off.

BTW, I am not angry at you, just the situation.
 
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