Coronavirus

Safranfoer

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NHS medical staff nor the police are poorly paid, and as for the other occupations you mention they are all career choices, no one is or should not be told what job they do.
Some jobs are more risky than others for contracting covid,but all people who provide a service to keep these occupations working like mechanics,electricians,joiners,tyre fitters and hundreds more are all if not front line workers are certainly key workers.
Unless the Bame community are working in sweat shops,is it not about life styles and health rather than occupation.
I'm not sure of the point you're making. Or cyclops, come to that. Sorry.
 

SOS

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Vit D levels wouldn’t explain community transfer though. They may have an impact on outcomes, but not transfer. A person’s ethnicity doesn’t explain community transfer, in and of itself, so vitamin D levels in south Asian communities wouldn't explain why areas like Oldham and Blackburn are seeing spikes. The factors listed by Carrowmore do. More frontline workers, more poverty, more multi-generational households = more transmission.
More front line workers?
More poverty?
More multi-generational households,yes, their choice,their way of living. =more transmissions within their communities.
 

Cyclops

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I'm not sure of the point you're making. Or cyclops, come to that. Sorry.
SOS asked you to define front line workers
You replied with examples of those type of jobs, not the definition of what a front line / key worker is. Picky maybe, but had to be cleared up.
 

Safranfoer

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More front line workers?
More poverty?
More multi-generational households,yes, their choice,their way of living. =more transmissions within their communities.
Oh I see. Well you’d need to take that up with the Nobel prize-winning President of the Royal Society, not me. I guess the onus is on you to disprove him. Seemed fair enough to me, but that wasn’t my point anyway. I was just pointing out that vit D levels don’t have anything to do with transmission rates. Outcomes, but not transmission.
 

SOS

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Scotland has taken a very different ( and much more successful ) approach to C19 management than England so you can't compare like with like.

As Prof Harrison said risk exposure changes over time. It's not long since London was the epicentre of C19 and hundreds of NHS/Social Care /transport workers died , the majority of whom were from the BAME community.
Maybe Scotland took a different approach than England,but the stats speak for themselves.
I think this could be the highest position in a table Scotland has been for a few years.

 

Safranfoer

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There's a lot to unpick here.

Humans can transmit the virus to dogs?
It can kill dogs with underlying conditions?
What kind of transmission risk are they?

And ugh. I'm more fond of my dog than many humans. Do we feel differently about the threat the pandemic poses, now we know what it can do to DOGS? (I know. It's only 25 dogs).
 

Walleye

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A few days ago there was a very short clip on the BBC news about a hospital in Texas. The doctor in the hospital said something along the lines of...
"If we learn from the experience in Italy and Spain, pushing tubes down people's throats means only 20% will survive. We've been treating patients with a cocktail of drugs instead and 95% of patients leave my hospital having recovered from Covid-19"
The hospital wasn't one of those top private hospitals either, 80% of his patients had no health insurance and many were Hispanics.

Has there been any news of improvements in UK hospitals?
 

Safranfoer

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I think that all healthcare professionals (world over) have learned that intubation isn’t the right answer. Isn’t that why Johnson wasn’t ventilated in this way? Accepting he got A1 treatment - didn’t they just blast him with pure oxygen? Isn’t it also why the panic run on mechanical ventilators wasn’t needed? No criticism here - they didn’t know at the time. But my understanding is that treatment plans are changing everywhere. Can’t remember where I acquired this knowledge though. Maybe carrowmore will know more.
 

Jockiescott

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A few days ago there was a very short clip on the BBC news about a hospital in Texas. The doctor in the hospital said something along the lines of...
"If we learn from the experience in Italy and Spain, pushing tubes down people's throats means only 20% will survive. We've been treating patients with a cocktail of drugs instead and 95% of patients leave my hospital having recovered from Covid-19"
The hospital wasn't one of those top private hospitals either, 80% of his patients had no health insurance and many were Hispanics.

Has there been any news of improvements in UK hospitals?
This is exactly what I have mentioned in many of my previous posts to the question, "... If coronavirus is so deadly why aren't more Americans dying?".

If people can be seen early enough in hospital and treatment can start sooner, they suggested that survival rates could be as high as 100%.

If America were still just shoving tubes down patients throats, their fatality rates would be extremely high.

As hospitals fill up though and beds become scarcer, they are being more selective of who they treat. With an average cost to treat a covid patient of 14k, some have cost over 70k, they are looking more to covering costs by treating those with insurance instead of running the risk of being out of pocket.

I read too that the cost of treating someone hospitalised by flu was four times less than treating someone with covid.

New York got hit hard early on and had extremely high death rates. Along with the UK. As the pandemic has progressed and medical treatments have evolved, more people are surviving covid but the long term effects on the major organs, along with other side effects, of those survivors is now becoming an issue.
 

Walleye

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Folk want to know if there is good news on this front. I want to know what I should do to look after myself should I get it. Do I contact the hospital before 7 days? Are there special treatment teams like in Germany who come out and monitor patients in the home to ensure they are doing well? Are there drugs that patients can take at home, prescribed by doctors, that may improve outcomes? What about the arthritis drugs being used to prevent the overreaction of the immune system which is causing many deaths?
As far as I am aware the advice in the UK is still to contact the hospital if symptoms persist after 7 days or if you get breathless. Yet everything I am hearing on improved treatments is to get treatment early because if you end up breathless and with a tube down your throat the outcomes aren't good at all.
Seems like we are still stuck in "protect the purse" mode in the NHS when really what we should be doing is keeping the existing nightingale hospitals open, building more nightingales, and treating more patients much sooner to avoid them going into ICU in the first place. China filled their temporary hospitals with as many patients as they could regardless of severity which helped outcomes and also ensured good isolation and reduced transmission in the community.

To be honest, if I get it and had to self isolate, I'd much rather do that in a nightingale and get too class care than potentially pass it on to the rest of my household or others in the community and risk it getting out of hand before I get any hospital care.

If we spent a small fraction of what we are spending on furlough to set up early and better treatments for all Covid patients then I am sure the death rate would fall and we'd manage any second spike much better.

But I hear and see nothing about this. We just seem to be waiting instead of preparing. I want to hear some good news and some innovative planning and preparation instead of following the outcomes of risk assessments from SAGE. I know for sure someone will have modelled the deaths Vs expenditure and costs to the economy and factored in probabilities of dates of availability of a vaccine and we'll be following the lowest risk, lowest cost model based on old thinking. Think outside the box guys, go the extra mile and think about how we can be more proactive in protecting the population and that will have a big impact on how the economy recovers. It seems like we are still following rules set up before Covid when we knew nothing about Covid. Time for a reset.
 

mows

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I'm like you Wallaye.
The nightingale hospitals should still be there and anything and everything to do with Covid goes straight in!
Regular hospitals, with continuous screening can then carry on as normal as possible and reduce the second wave of secondary deaths due to 6 months of limited health care.
 

long Preston

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I'm like you Wallaye.
The nightingale hospitals should still be there and anything and everything to do with Covid goes straight in!
Regular hospitals, with continuous screening can then carry on as normal as possible and reduce the second wave of secondary deaths due to 6 months of limited health care.
here here that would make absolute sense to me. on another but related subject seems like wee nippy is now telling scots not to travel to N.England and asking Northerners not to travel North-she would be happy with a border sooner than later methinks.
 

offshore

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here here that would make absolute sense to me. on another but related subject seems like wee nippy is now telling scots not to travel to N.England and asking Northerners not to travel North-she would be happy with a border sooner than later methinks.
I don't blame her . From the comments I have seen her make, I would far rather she was in charge than BJ - speaking as a Sassenach, who has never had any particular wish for a divided union. I can understand her directives and follow her train of thought.

Sadly I think we have just witnessed the second home UK government home goal of this pandemic. The first was shutting down far too late and allowing free travel, when it was clear to every man and his dog we were going to have to shut down anyway - a massive opportunity missed.

The second has been to now actively encourage people to travel abroad, seeding new cases on return in a manner fundamentally more difficult to trace than localized breakout - with just a few months to go before autumn and winter.

The mad dash to 'get back to normal' and save perhaps a few thousand baggage handling jobs, is going to crucify tens of thousands of small businesses if we go into second lock downs during the winter. I have no confidence in our tracking system or the willingness of many holidaying Britons to self isolate correctly. Our world leading tracking app ready for June was apparently a fantasy.

We could of done a New Zeal and have survived (if not thrived Meghan Markle style) over the winter, but I fear the BJ government has just shot us in the foot again. We will still be in a pickle as winter starts, when we could have instead battened down during this hard won summer lull.

Sorry to be miserable. Lets hope I am wrong (which is far from impossible) and it all turns out for the best anyway.
 

long Preston

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I don't blame her . From the comments I have seen her make, I would far rather she was in charge than BJ - speaking as a Sassenach, who has never had any particular wish for a divided union. I can understand her directives and follow her train of thought.

Sadly I think we have just witnessed the second home UK government home goal of this pandemic. The first was shutting down far too late and allowing free travel, when it was clear to every man and his dog we were going to have to shut down anyway - a massive opportunity missed.

The second has been to now actively encourage people to travel abroad, seeding new cases on return in a manner fundamentally more difficult to trace than localized breakout - with just a few months to go before autumn and winter.

The mad dash to 'get back to normal' and save perhaps a few thousand baggage handling jobs, is going to crucify tens of thousands of small businesses if we go into second lock downs during the winter. I have no confidence in our tracking system or the willingness of many holidaying Britons to self isolate correctly. Our world leading tracking app ready for June was apparently a fantasy.

We could of done a New Zeal and have survived (if not thrived Meghan Markle style) over the winter, but I fear the BJ government has just shot us in the foot again. We will still be in a pickle as winter starts, when we could have instead battened down during this hard won summer lull.

Sorry to be miserable. Lets hope I am wrong (which is far from impossible) and it all turns out for the best anyway.
yes lets hope you are. I know one thing whatever the govt do is wrong -lockdown too late, no ppe( not entirely correct) nightingale hospitals-waste of money local lockdowns in response to hotspots, not allowing nail bars to open school teachers playing politics-they can't win. and Piers (i know everything about everything Morgan) praising wee nippy for managing a tiny population in a pretty large area. just saying...
 

Cyclops

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Yes, sturgeon is urging caution and recommended temporarily, that Scots should not travel to these areas in the north of England with new lockdown restrictions. It seems a sensible request. I don’t think I had heard any comments during her conference today surrounding borders, independence or stopping English from those from affected areas, travelling to Scotland.
 

ibm59

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Yes, sturgeon is urging caution and recommended temporarily, that Scots should not travel to these areas in the north of England with new lockdown restrictions. It seems a sensible request. I don’t think I had heard any comments during her conference today surrounding borders, independence or stopping English from those from affected areas, travelling to Scotland.
"I strongly advise anyone planning to travel to areas affected in the north of England, or anyone planning to travel to Scotland from those same areas, to cancel their plans.”

Ms Sturgeon added that those whose travel was essential "should follow public health advice at all times".

And quite rightly so.
 

Jockiescott

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"I strongly advise anyone planning to travel to areas affected in the north of England, or anyone planning to travel to Scotland from those same areas, to cancel their plans.”

Ms Sturgeon added that those whose travel was essential "should follow public health advice at all times".

And quite rightly so.
I know people who are visiting another family in one of the newly restricted ares of England.

I know fine well when they return, he'll be straight to the river for a cast and then return to his work as normal on Monday morning.

She'll get back to her NHS job which involves visiting old people in their homes and neither of them will think anything of it.
 

Safranfoer

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Closing the north via Twitter on the eve of Eid and leaving local press scrabbling to get their hands on the information they needed over and above Matt Hancock’s tweet was BAD. Issuing contradicting briefs against that instruction was worse - I saw a journalist say he’d received four separate, conflicting, consequential clarifications. This kind of communication wasn’t forgiveable in March and it’s utterly baffling now. Surely a key part of the whack a mole strategy would have been, ‘and this is the chain of communication to ensure information critical to public health is quickly and accurately disseminated’. What on Earth are they DOING?

I’m not surprised at all by the need to respond quickly to emerging information. I’m dismayed by how poorly they are doing it.

Don’t get me started on “Hands. Face. Space. Get tested. Self isolate.”
 

offshore

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yes lets hope you are. I know one thing whatever the govt do is wrong -lockdown too late, no ppe( not entirely correct) nightingale hospitals-waste of money local lockdowns in response to hotspots, not allowing nail bars to open school teachers playing politics-they can't win. and Piers (i know everything about everything Morgan) praising wee nippy for managing a tiny population in a pretty large area. just saying...
I take the your points entirely - it easy to find fault what ever they do, especially with hindsight. I get that.

But if they are struggling to contain an outbreak in Melbourne, when Australia has had very well contained borders, what chance do we have as winter approaches actively encouraging the population to travel (and return) here, there and everywhere ? Surely they can see that and do something decisive before we get hit badly again - its just logic and is provided for us free, as a warning - like Italy was in February.

For me it is the second lockdown which will close most of the businesses and associated job losses. The costs of avoiding , will be worth it - for the mental health of specific groups in particular.

I still have an open mind though - and perhaps I am seeing it wrong ????
 

MikeCC

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I don't blame her . From the comments I have seen her make, I would far rather she was in charge than BJ - speaking as a Sassenach, who has never had any particular wish for a divided union. I can understand her directives and follow her train of thought.

Sadly I think we have just witnessed the second home UK government home goal of this pandemic. The first was shutting down far too late and allowing free travel, when it was clear to every man and his dog we were going to have to shut down anyway - a massive opportunity missed.

The second has been to now actively encourage people to travel abroad, seeding new cases on return in a manner fundamentally more difficult to trace than localized breakout - with just a few months to go before autumn and winter.

The mad dash to 'get back to normal' and save perhaps a few thousand baggage handling jobs, is going to crucify tens of thousands of small businesses if we go into second lock downs during the winter. I have no confidence in our tracking system or the willingness of many holidaying Britons to self isolate correctly. Our world leading tracking app ready for June was apparently a fantasy.

We could of done a New Zeal and have survived (if not thrived Meghan Markle style) over the winter, but I fear the BJ government has just shot us in the foot again. We will still be in a pickle as winter starts, when we could have instead battened down during this hard won summer lull.

Sorry to be miserable. Lets hope I am wrong (which is far from impossible) and it all turns out for the best anyway.
Theres a few sweeping statements in there. Where did the Govt ‘actively encourage’ people to travel abroad?....i dont recall seeing any afternoon briefings with Hancock at the lecturn telling us to go book a fortnight in Magaluf??

The current problems facing the airline and travel/tourism industries also extend exponentially beyond a ‘few thousand baggage handlers’, thats an incredibly naive statement to make. I have many friends and former colleagues involved in aviation alone who have lost their jobs and have been forced onto the dole.
 

sneakypeter

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I take the your points entirely - it easy to find fault what ever they do, especially with hindsight. I get that.

But if they are struggling to contain an outbreak in Melbourne, when Australia has had very well contained borders, what chance do we have as winter approaches actively encouraging the population to travel (and return) here, there and everywhere ? Surely they can see that and do something decisive before we get hit badly again - its just logic and is provided for us free, as a warning - like Italy was in February.

For me it is the second lockdown which will close most of the businesses and associated job losses. The costs of avoiding , will be worth it - for the mental health of specific groups in particular.

I still have an open mind though - and perhaps I am seeing it wrong ????
Spot on I would say, it cannot be a just bad luck that spikes are happening all over, certainly Europe/USA, travel restrictions lifted and up go the cases, not rocket science. Contaiment must mean no unnecessary travel, holidays hardly count, most business the same with current technology, to avoid the inevitable, or seemingly inevitable 2nd wave, we must just shut the door to travel, both international and too some degree nationally! Were Wales wrong in keeping their travel lockdown in place for longer, Scotland too? It would seem likely that they may regret, or potentially regret opening up, I know that economic disaster drove the changes, but a major resurgence will be totally devasting, with the furlough scheme ending, the prospect of further bailouts en masse are not there, **** and fan coming together soon!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Walleye

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The R value for England and Wales has been above 1 since early July. We know which way this is going and we know that we cannot eradicate Covid from England before the winter comes.

Screenshot_20200731-202409__01.jpg

Time for some radical new thinking on this instead of hoping for the best.
 

salarchaser

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Closing the north via Twitter on the eve of Eid and leaving local press scrabbling to get their hands on the information they needed over and above Matt Hancock’s tweet was BAD. Issuing contradicting briefs against that instruction was worse - I saw a journalist say he’d received four separate, conflicting, consequential clarifications. This kind of communication wasn’t forgiveable in March and it’s utterly baffling now. Surely a key part of the whack a mole strategy would have been, ‘and this is the chain of communication to ensure information critical to public health is quickly and accurately disseminated’. What on Earth are they DOING?

I’m not surprised at all by the need to respond quickly to emerging information. I’m dismayed by how poorly they are doing it.

Don’t get me started on “Hands. Face. Space. Get tested. Self isolate.”
I think we're saying what some of us said from the outset. The government doesnt know what its doing. And still doesn't.
Their stakeholder management is appalling.
15 years in the making apparently.😖
Much of this is project management 101.
 
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