Coronavirus

Safranfoer

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Got to say Saf what you have written is pretty awful I had no idea people did that kind of crap. Really bad, it truely is a weird world, but then I'm an old fart looking at stuff that leaves me speechless very often these days.
Honestly, it’s fine. Bit creepy and part of the reason why I deleted the fishing blog I used to write and have started to be more cautious when chatting with people here by private message. I ask members I trust who xxxxx used to be, and I’ve removed loads from Facebook now. But ultimately there are far more decent people, here and everywhere. I would just honestly like people to stop the personal digging. It’s not great to feel a spotlight on you, and it is deliberate, it sours the tone of the whole thread unnecessarily, it adds very little at all beyond an opportunity for the predictable crew to pop in with their predictable likes, and it just makes people look... like kids, I guess. To put it politely. I don’t like to get personal but it’s hard when there’s so much personal nonsense directed at me, and if I respond, it’s ‘vitriol’, or I need to ‘calm down’, or I shouldn’t be here... I think a lot of the time people forget that we are all real people. How you behave here is how you behave. It’s who you really are. If you get your kicks making people feel crappy online, then at some level you’re the kind of person who enjoys making people feel crappy, and that says far more about you than it does about me. Some people behave in a way that, if you were my kid, I’d be removing your devices until you’d proven you could earn them back. It clearly doesn’t bother me too much else I wouldn’t be here - but it does make the whole conversation circular, and Safranfoer-centric. You want to hear less from me? You want conversations to move on? Quit quoting me with questions and digging at me. That would be a really excellent start.

I have drafted something like this to send as a private message to a few people recently then deleted it because I’m honestly not sure who some of you are any more. I’m the oddity that doesn’t fish right now - but I used to, I’ve been here for 6 years now, I think. It’s changed a lot. But the cycle of new members with old knowledge and grudges makes it all less comfortable

GK, you’re not an internet creep, btw. A million miles from it. Your post just lanced a boil.

Let’s all get back to the point of the thread.
 

peterchilton

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My father in law and I have been banned from discussing politics. His only line of defence, for anything at all, ever, is whataboutery in the Labour Party. And he will go back DECADES if he has to, but always and only ever this: What about xxxxxxxxx that LABOUR did, huh?I think he has me confused with Glenda Jackson or something. It is never ever relevant.

He is genuinely a very lovely man otherwise. Which is what makes me doubt peterchilton is my father in law. But I am going to snoop over his past posts, just to check. He has over 1000. If they all mention Labour - I'm setting my husband on him.
I think the Labour party have already checked them out :D
 

Sarcy

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I know that I keep asking you awkward questions and I apologise for it. Second wave? How likely is this? Do you know roughly when to expect it? Do you think it will be worse than the first wave? Other than the social distancing stuff and masks when in the vicinity of other people, is there anything else you suggest we do? Once again I do not expect you to compromise yourself in any way.
Why keep asking then? Answers are only opinions and not facts. Why waste both your time and angst?

As for this, " might be a lot less of an a55hole " Would you know one if you saw one? Of course you would -it takes one to know one
 

Safranfoer

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I’ll start. 4 Sage members have now said now is the wrong time to relax lockdown, given the numbers of new infections a day:


Meanwhile, this inside report from the track and trace system mirrors and elaborates on the observations of the woman I know who signed up:


With that in mind, how comfortable do you feel about the new relaxed rules? My sister wants a day out together tomorrow, my in-laws were straight on the phone following the briefing wanting to come over... I am perhaps predictably not feeling comfortable, but I’ve no idea what to say to them. The members of Sage that said no got over-ruled? Work is starting to pick up a bit now. It is not the time for me to be ill...
 

Perrypokemon

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I’ll start. 4 Sage members have now said now is the wrong time to relax lockdown, given the numbers of new infections a day:


Meanwhile, this inside report from the track and trace system mirrors and elaborates on the observations of the woman I know who signed up:


With that in mind, how comfortable do you feel about the new relaxed rules? My sister wants a day out together tomorrow, my in-laws were straight on the phone following the briefing wanting to come over... I am perhaps predictably not feeling comfortable, but I’ve no idea what to say to them. The members of Sage that said no got over-ruled? Work is starting to pick up a bit now. It is not the time for me to be ill...

I have had some engineers in the factory all the way through as we have needed to provide support to food processing plants, a power generator and some chemical companies. We reopen full tilt on Tuesday. I will not be accepting any offers of any form of social gathering with friends or family till the year 2050. As regards going to sites to do assessments I have no choice so I suppose I am kind of contradicting myself. I will do the things I have to but not the things I can choose not to so in that regard my conscience is relatively clear. I only hope my lungs are this clear in 6 weeks time 🤞
 

mows

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Well I enjoyed the lifting yesterday. Up at 4am for fishing at Balmkewan. Seen 3 people at over 2m. Had a couple brownies, and that was it. Really low water. Then had 9 holes of golf. Great to play again. Wasn't within 50m of anyone. Back to fishing at 9 pm. Saw 4 people, all further than 2m appart. Never travelled more than 3 miles. If I do this another 100 times I might put myself in as much danger as 5 mins of one shop at tescos, which was perfectly acceptable during lock down. Got another family coming round this afternoon for a BBQ. Separate plates and cutlery, social distancing, sanitiser. I guess I'd have to do this at least 50 times to equate for 5 mins in Tescos.
 

peterchilton

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Risked my life in Tesco several times, went fishing with a friend in separate cars, visited my son outside and chatted 6 feet apart, using your common sense seems appropriate.
 

Safranfoer

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Risked my life in Tesco several times, went fishing with a friend in separate cars, visited my son outside and chatted 6 feet apart, using your common sense seems appropriate.
My in-laws are common sense but I think my sister will find me odd for not hugging, walking close it together... what happens when people’s common sense say different things?

To be clear I’m not worried about dying or risking my life. I just can’t afford 3+ weeks out of action right now. We’ve taken one person out of furlough thus far. The next month looks extremely busy but our clients are only planning on a quarterly basis and we have no visibility on Q3 (July start). I need to maximise June.
 

tenet

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So 4 members of sage say it's too early to end lockdown - I guess the other 40 odd thought it ok.☹
 

Perrypokemon

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Well I enjoyed the lifting yesterday. Up at 4am for fishing at Balmkewan. Seen 3 people at over 2m. Had a couple brownies, and that was it. Really low water. Then had 9 holes of golf. Great to play again. Wasn't within 50m of anyone. Back to fishing at 9 pm. Saw 4 people, all further than 2m appart. Never travelled more than 3 miles. If I do this another 100 times I might put myself in as much danger as 5 mins of one shop at tescos, which was perfectly acceptable during lock down. Got another family coming round this afternoon for a BBQ. Separate plates and cutlery, social distancing, sanitiser. I guess I'd have to do this at least 50 times to equate for 5 mins in Tescos.

Fishing, golf, more fishing and then a barbecue? You need to take on an apprentice. Mates rates and all that. Just do not expect me to go lighting fires when pi55ed up. I have something of a chequered past in such matters ☠
 

ozzyian

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One thing about Safranfoer, she doesn't surround herself with people of the same opinions (certainly not on here anyway), adds a different slant to things, is not afraid to put forward her opinions and rarely gets personal.
I appreciate Safranfoers presence on the forum, even though we don't always agree, she has made me pause and think for a while many times which is a good thing.
She'd be welcome in my Ministry of ShITS any day :)
One thing I will add, as much as I've visited the Brexit and Corona threads, I always have a wander round the forum for fishing related stuff and try to give a little bit back to the cracking posters who offer up advice, tips, experiences, knowledge and especially the tie of the month threads which is a joy. If you want to see art in it's purest form and forget about all the sh1tty things in the world, just open up that thread and marvel at Jockiescott's use of colour, or the young lad Logan learning to tie flies, or the newbies entering their creations for the first time. Sends all the Covid and Brexit blues right where they belong.

Visit tie of the month!
Yes, but this is one of the defining technological qualities of the Алгоритм дестабилизации правительства Великобритании Марк 26 Версия 14
 

Safranfoer

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So 4 members of sage say it's too early to end lockdown - I guess the other 40 odd thought it ok.☹
Well they are the ones that have poked their heads above the parapet - but I do know that expecting consensus among that many people is unrealistic and who’s to say who is right?

The daily deaths across Europe don’t make us look especially ready though, comparatively- especially as their measures around schools are more stringent:


I know we all FEEL ready. My sister in law is a deputy headteacher. She starts back Monday but is not allowing my niece in. I don’t know how logical this is - if my sister in law gets it, it’s likely my niece will - but she says it’s as much about the emotional experience they’ll have in school as anything.
 

Safranfoer

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Yes, but this is one of the defining technological qualities of the Алгоритм дестабилизации правительства Великобритании Марк 26 Версия 14
I’m the 15, actually. The 14 was decommissioned when it broke Asimov’s first two laws and went on a homicidal rampage through a fishing hut on the South Tyne.
 

ibm59

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Part of a message I sent to friends earlier today.
And folks think the general public should be treated as adults having a degree of common sense ?
Here comes the second spike.

"0800 this morning saw a minibus park outside my front door and discharge 10 golfers and their paraphernalia .😡😡
No one is going to tell me that is sticking to the advice. The same will be happening at fisheries , and some association waters , for sure
Funny thing is , there are two golf clubs in town , but both are well over a mile away.
So why drop them so far away ?
Answers on the back of a postage stamp. 😒 "
 

salarchaser

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I worked in BPO for a number of year implementing business process and IT systems.
In most instances, getting people up to speed wasn't an issue IF the processes and systems were known and stable. And IF you had people experienced in the processes and / or systems within the teams.
My biggest concern with the 'call centre' track and trace is the timescale for putting this together. We've been told by BJ that we will get a world class track and trace system which was to be based on an app. We were given a deadline. From what I can gather, the app never worked so we've gone for plan B and rushed it in to meet a deadline. Why? 100k tests a day by the end of April, 200k tests a day by the end of May, a world class track and trace system by the start of June.
All of it 'stuff'. No intrinsic value, just ticking boxes. We said it, we did it. Whatever 'it' is.

This is another challenge to the integrity of the verbiage coming out of our leaders mouths.
We're doing stuff. Trust us, we know what we're doing.
They don't! We're in a crisis with no plan, just stuff.

My approach is to keep myself to myself. Not rushing out to socialise while distancing, no stretching the rules to fit , for what they're worth (unlike our leaders and their aids) just being responsible.
I know not everyone can because of personal circumstance and I feel for them.
Others won't because they don't want to. Selfish.

My daughter lives with her boyfriend. Through lockdown we were occasionally at the same place out of necessity, looking after animals at our small farm. She has been quite clearly told to keep her distance. I'd love to give my daughter a hug, but she is more exposed than me, partly out of necessity (she runs a livery yard and regularly has vets, farriers, etc at the yard and with animals pulling, you sometimes end up closer to people than you intended), partly through secondary contact (her boyfriend is working and encounters others) and partly because she is more relaxed about things, despite our nagging. I try to guide her, but at 25 its up to her.

Myself and my wife obviously come into contact every day. We go to the farm together, I go fishing (club water, no need to encounter anyone to pay), we shop once a week. Until I am confident the risk has diminished sufficiently we will continue in this way.
Would love to see my mother and my father-in-law both across the border in Wales, the latter now in hospital, but that isn't possible with the current rules.

The problem I have with it all is that rather than front up, communicate the progress or otherwise and be honest, the government is dumbing things down to meet their promises.
In delivering projects there are 3 variables. Time, cost, quality. And for quality you can read scope. So, we promise to do something by the end of April, time is running out, we cant throw money at it so we reduce scope (100k tests, lets stick them in the post and claims its done). Ditto 200k by the end of May.
We'll have a world beating track and trace system by June. App doesn't work, can't throw money at it, lets reduce scope / quality. Manual solution that doesn't add value.

Their credibility is shot by lack of delivery. That is compounded by lying / misleading the public over what has been achieved. That doesn't remedy things, it compounds the problem, no credibility, no trust.
The government doesn't know what its doing!

I would love BJ to stand at the lectern tonight and articulate how our track and trace system outperforms that of every other country. Or stand up and say we didn't achieve what we said we were going to, and this is the next best solution. The final option would be to say we haven't achieved what we said by when we said. For it to be world leading we need an extra month and that's what we are going to do.
That may retain some respect if not credibility.
 

carrowmore

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I know that I keep asking you awkward questions and I apologise for it. Second wave? How likely is this? Do you know roughly when to expect it? Do you think it will be worse than the first wave? Other than the social distancing stuff and masks when in the vicinity of other people, is there anything else you suggest we do? Once again I do not expect you to compromise yourself in any way.
No need to apologise PP . There is genuine concern amongst the medical community as we have an R hovering stubbornly close to 1 , a track and trace system that looks like it's only going to be fully operational by the end of June ( and for which there is significant concern over data security ) and an isolation scheme that doesn't include testing of asymptomatic individuals. When or how bad a second wave proves to be is anyone's guess but most public health experts feel it is inevitable. We can all do our bit to help prevent it but I can't understand why the government has not made the wearing of masks outside the home mandatory ( as in Spain for example ) given the evidence for benefit. I was in a supermarket yesterday , hardly anyone was wearing a mask and it was impossible to adhere to social distancing advice.

 

Perrypokemon

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No need to apologise PP . There is genuine concern amongst the medical community as we have an R hovering stubbornly close to 1 , a track and trace system that looks like it's only going to be fully operational by the end of June ( and for which there is significant concern over data security ) and an isolation theme that doesn't include testing of asymptomatic individuals. When or how bad a second wave proves to be is anyone's guess but most public health experts feel it is inevitable. We can all do our bit to help prevent it but I can't understand why the government has not made the wearing of masks outside the home mandatory ( as in Spain for example ) given the evidence for benefit. I was in a supermarket yesterday , hardly anyone was wearing a mask and it was impossible to adhere to social distancing advice.


I thank you for the information but was really hoping it might be better. I did however suspect things might be about a zillion times less rosey than they are being foolishly portrayed by some of the giddy fools among us.
 

ozzyian

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Lets hope that UV is as effective as some hope. If it is then a temporary delay in wave 2 might be on the cards. I'm not banking on that and I'm watching the situation very closely now because I am currently considering the closure of my business for the year (it's highly seasonal) resulting in effectively no receipts since Aug last year but about 60% of the costs. Rishi's beer tokens haven't made any real difference to me.
 

Loxie

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My father in law and I have been banned from discussing politics. His only line of defence, for anything at all, ever, is whataboutery in the Labour Party. And he will go back DECADES if he has to, but always and only ever this: What about xxxxxxxxx that LABOUR did, huh?I think he has me confused with Glenda Jackson or something. It is never ever relevant.

He is genuinely a very lovely man otherwise. Which is what makes me doubt peterchilton is my father in law. But I am going to snoop over his past posts, just to check. He has over 1000. If they all mention Labour - I'm setting my husband on him.
It's probably not his fault to be fair. His parents almost certainly indoctrinated him when he was young and theirs probably indoctrinated them. Political tribalism is much like religion and is implanted in children who then find it very hard to break free. Anyone who knows which party's candidate they will vote for at the next election should probably take a good look at their thought process leading to that decision. Our politicians are generally very poor quality, with some shining exceptions in all parties, and this is a direct result of tribal voting.

It's very hard to break out of that way of thinking and of those that do they tend to swap one tribe for another. I would love to see a time when children were not routinely exposed to political and religious bigotry throughout their formative years and were allowed, encouraged even, to make their own minds up when they are old enough. The only way to get there is for the problem to be recognised and acted on. Sadly this will never happen in my lifetime.

I find it interesting that Boris has chosen to spend 20 points of public opinion to save DC. Whether this political calculation pays off remains to be seen. I think I might have tried the Mandelson manoeuvre if I was in charge but there you go, maybe D.C. threatened to walk for good.
 

Safranfoer

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It's probably not his fault to be fair. His parents almost certainly indoctrinated him when he was young and theirs probably indoctrinated them. Political tribalism is much like religion and is implanted in children who then find it very hard to break free. Anyone who knows which party's candidate they will vote for at the next election should probably take a good look at their thought process leading to that decision. Our politicians are generally very poor quality, with some shining exceptions in all parties, and this is a direct result of tribal voting.

It's very hard to break out of that way of thinking and of those that do they tend to swap one tribe for another. I would love to see a time when children were not routinely exposed to political and religious bigotry throughout their formative years and were allowed, encouraged even, to make their own minds up when they are old enough. The only way to get there is for the problem to be recognised and acted on. Sadly this will never happen in my lifetime.

I find it interesting that Boris has chosen to spend 20 points of public opinion to save DC. Whether this political calculation pays off remains to be seen. I think I might have tried the Mandelson manoeuvre if I was in charge but there you go, maybe D.C. threatened to walk for good.
From my perspective, the opposite is true. I grew up in a staunchly Conservative household (mum and step dad). My dad voted labour until his latter years when he turned to UKIP, thus embodying the old adage.

Because his grandparents are all Conservative voters we go easy on the political indoctrination of the boy, but it’s difficult when it comes to morals and values - I believe that immigration is a positive thing, in the round, and that the problems around it can be solved by other means. I believe in helping refugees. I believe in a welfare state. Seth’s asking questions about the riots in America now and it’s hard not to be political about that too.

More should be taught about politics at school from an early age (though how you’d deal with impartiality on the curriculum I don’t know). How our systems work, what the different parties stand for objectively, without the nuances that the personalities involved in them today overlay. Conservatism is not about lying, cheating, backstabbing and incompetence but you’d struggle to see that looking at the last few years. It’d be a fair assessment of labour too, btw.

BJ is banking on his ratings going right back up by the next election. It’s a high risk strategy given he has to successfully manage a pandemic and deliver Brexit well before then. I’d be avoiding such obvious blots on my copy book to bank goodwill in the face of any future blunders. Yeah, I know he messed the trade deals up but remember how he acted decisively and with moral fibre THEN...? It also relies on it being 4.5 years til the next election. His majority is already fraying. The Tories used to be excellent at closing ranks. Maggie wouldn’t have stood for this.
 

Safranfoer

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Lets hope that UV is as effective as some hope. If it is then a temporary delay in wave 2 might be on the cards. I'm not banking on that and I'm watching the situation very closely now because I am currently considering the closure of my business for the year (it's highly seasonal) resulting in effectively no receipts since Aug last year but about 60% of the costs. Rishi's beer tokens haven't made any real difference to me.
Speaking of beer tokens, I don’t know how the hospitality sector will recover if the scheme isn’t extended. The furlough scheme has been a lifeline for our employees. And the proposed phasing out seems fair enough too. I can see that it either works or just holds back the inevitable though. No middle ground.

Your decision sounds difficult. I’m so sorry. It’s gutting seeing everything slip away.
 
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