Care home vaccine refusers.

SOS

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westie4566

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If you want to work offshore you need a survival cert.
If you want to be a pilot you need regular medicals.
There is no opting out.
IMO any people working for NHS or in care homes should have all available jabs or no job.
Would any of us want someone who is not vaxed looking after our relatives, whether it is covid, flu, MMR, tetanus, hep B or hep C .
But in Englandshire, the mandate for the vaxx doesn't come into force until next April. So it's OK for unvaxxed staff to treat patients up until then (which arguably is the worst time of year for any virus) and then if they don't have it they get fired? I get where you're coming from SOS re what's needed to hold a certain job or position. However if the Govt think it's that critical for NHS staff, why wait until next April??? Are they safe from transmitting C19 up until that arbitrary date?

That part really doesn't add up to me....so in the immortal words of 'Chewin' the Fat', I smell sh*** :ROFLMAO:
 

Birkin

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I understand the law may say it, but dont feel Hepatitus B and covid are analagous.

From what I've read and heard, even if double jabbed, you can still catch and transmit covid. The jab is protecting you from more severe symptoms not preventing you getting it.
So, worker A, not jabbed, gets covid, is off sick so not transmitting to those in their care.
Worker B, double jabbed, gets covid, continues to work and transmits it to those in their care.
Sounds like those not jabbed have saved those in their care from infection.


Ok a bit flippant / antagonistic, but the principle stands.
Jabbed or not you may get infected, jabbed or not you may pass it on.
Why persecute those not jabbed?
Thats not how it works.
Heath workers are checked twice a week.
Worker B, double jabbed, would also have to go into isolation.
If you look at the hospital intake around 90% of new admissions have not had one or both of the vaccines putting hospital staff at risk of infection and costing the NHS more money looking after them.
 

Safranfoer

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But in Englandshire, the mandate for the vaxx doesn't come into force until next April. So it's OK for unvaxxed staff to treat patients up until then (which arguably is the worst time of year for any virus) and then if they don't have it they get fired? I get where you're coming from SOS re what's needed to hold a certain job or position. However if the Govt think it's that critical for NHS staff, why wait until next April??? Are they safe from transmitting C19 up until that arbitrary date?

That part really doesn't add up to me....so in the immortal words of 'Chewin' the Fat', I smell sh*** :ROFLMAO:
This is a good point.
 

Safranfoer

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The numbers show the vaccine works. Cases have been soaring, though coming down now, but it doesn't matter, as the link between hospital admissions and deaths are is much, much weaker. The end may finally be in sight. Allowing more old folk to die when they're supposed to be in a safe place, after what happened last spring, feels abhorrent.
 

tenet

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My daughter hears that every day.
As westie4566 says, and I agree, why wait till next April.
I guess with a 3 month gap between jabs the government are saying you have until the end of the year to get your first jab. That will give the various NHS Trusts 6 or 7 weeks to convince the doubters.
 

westie4566

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The numbers show the vaccine works. Cases have been soaring, though coming down now, but it doesn't matter, as the link between hospital admissions and deaths are is much, much weaker. The end may finally be in sight. Allowing more old folk to die when they're supposed to be in a safe place, after what happened last spring, feels abhorrent.
Dee I'm crap at sharing links etc. However. if you can work through this one (I know that Alan (Mows) is better at sifting out the data on this one). It's a page that is updated for both Scotland and the Uk every day around 3pm.

Now if you click 'all' on case numbers, then scroll down to the next bit and click on testing...then click 'all' on that graph re daily tests, you'll see a direct correlation between the numbers tested and the daily 'cases'. Tests rise, cases rise. It's almost as if, when the Goct. want to 'turn the screws'. they ramp up testing to prove a point?

 

salarchaser

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Thats not how it works.
Heath workers are checked twice a week.
Worker B, double jabbed, would also have to go into isolation.
If you look at the hospital intake around 90% of new admissions have not had one or both of the vaccines putting hospital staff at risk of infection and costing the NHS more money looking after them.
Still doesn't answer the question.
They're all being tested and told to isolate. So why do they need to be jabbed.
You seem to be making a strong case for them not needing to be.

As for the strain on the NHS, unjabbed health workers will be far less in number than unjabbed joe public just because they only make up a small percentage of the general population.
Maybe jabs for joe public should be mandatory as well.
Good luck with that.
 

ozzyian

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Dee I'm crap at sharing links etc. However. if you can work through this one (I know that Alan (Mows) is better at sifting out the data on this one). It's a page that is updated for both Scotland and the Uk every day around 3pm.

Now if you click 'all' on case numbers, then scroll down to the next bit and click on testing...then click 'all' on that graph re daily tests, you'll see a direct correlation between the numbers tested and the daily 'cases'. Tests rise, cases rise. It's almost as if, when the Goct. want to 'turn the screws'. they ramp up testing to prove a point?

Is it possible that more tests get done when more people get a cough and lose their sense of taste.................

Just out of interest, for the antivaxers* on here. If the requirement to be vaccinated to work in healthcare/age care is a redundant and false requirement then why are the government doing this?









* :)
 

SOS

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But in Englandshire, the mandate for the vaxx doesn't come into force until next April. So it's OK for unvaxxed staff to treat patients up until then (which arguably is the worst time of year for any virus) and then if they don't have it they get fired? I get where you're coming from SOS re what's needed to hold a certain job or position. However if the Govt think it's that critical for NHS staff, why wait until next April??? Are they safe from transmitting C19 up until that arbitrary date?

That part really doesn't add up to me....so in the immortal words of 'Chewin' the Fat', I smell sh*** :ROFLMAO:
Might be that there are many jobs within a care home where there is no face to face contact with patients, also employment law is very complex and sacking someone because you have changed the rules might be awkward.
But lets face it the care home sector is well known for hiring underpaid foreign workers without the credentials or jabs needed to to the job safly but without them there would be a shortage.
Anyone up for a game of Russian roulett.
 

westie4566

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Might be that there are many jobs within a care home where there is no face to face contact with patients, also employment law is very complex and sacking someone because you have changed the rules might be awkward.
But lets face it the care home sector is well known for hiring underpaid foreign workers without the credentials or jabs needed to to the job safly but without them there would be a shortage.
Anyone up for a game of Russian roulett.
Sorry chum, not getting your point here???

Are we looking at the broader picture re care homes and the NHS vax mandate, or discussing the post Brexit employee shortage?

Not having a go, honest...just not sure where you are coming from?

Whichever way we look at it, it's a s'hitstorm that's just beginning.
 

salarchaser

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Sorry chum, not getting your point here???

Are we looking at the broader picture re care homes and the NHS vax mandate, or discussing the post Brexit employee shortage?

Not having a go, honest...just not sure where you are coming from?

Whichever way we look at it, it's a s'hitstorm that's just beginning.
Next thing it'll be that no one will be allowed to be treated by the healthcare system unless they've been jabbed.

'Sorry, can't give you your jab, you've not been jabbed.'
:unsure:
 

Safranfoer

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Dee I'm crap at sharing links etc. However. if you can work through this one (I know that Alan (Mows) is better at sifting out the data on this one). It's a page that is updated for both Scotland and the Uk every day around 3pm.

Now if you click 'all' on case numbers, then scroll down to the next bit and click on testing...then click 'all' on that graph re daily tests, you'll see a direct correlation between the numbers tested and the daily 'cases'. Tests rise, cases rise. It's almost as if, when the Goct. want to 'turn the screws'. they ramp up testing to prove a point?

Or that increases in cases drives demands for tests up.

This time around, covid feels way more real. Two of my employees were very ill with it - one is still on part week working, he can’t manage a full week. My husband’s elderly aunt and uncle are currently really ill with it and on the edge of hospital. I have three friends that have been in bed for between a week and three weeks. My sister in law is signed off work with long covid symptoms. My teen niece (unvaxxed) is currently on day 3 of being in bed with it. They’re just the examples I can think of off the top of my tired head. No one is critically ill, happily and luckily I haven’t lost anyone close to me - but it’s really laying young, healthy people low, and I hate to think where Stu’s aunt and uncle would be if they weren’t jabbed and boosted. We need fewer people spreading it to vulnerable folk. But we should educate people, not force uptake - and the Welsh stance that 95% vaxxed is good enough seems sensible.
 

SOS

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Sorry chum, not getting your point here???

Are we looking at the broader picture re care homes and the NHS vax mandate, or discussing the post Brexit employee shortage?

Not having a go, honest...just not sure where you are coming from?

Whichever way we look at it, it's a s'hitstorm that's just beginning.
Of course its a sh1tstorm, but I would ask you the question
Do you sack them now?and leave the care homes with no staff
or do you give them the chance to get vaxed while having the time to recruit more staff that are jabbed?
In the real world they would not have been hired in the first place if the care homes paid the wages that their fees would suggest they paid.
If they are scared of needles they are in the wrong job
If it is a religious thing they are in the wrong job
If they do not trust the nhs scientists they are in the wrong job.









OK Westie you are in charge what would you do sack them now or wait until you have replacements?.
 
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westie4566

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Or that increases in cases drives demands for tests up.

This time around, covid feels way more real. Two of my employees were very ill with it - one is still on part week working, he can’t manage a full week. My husband’s elderly aunt and uncle are currently really ill with it and on the edge of hospital. I have three friends that have been in bed for between a week and three weeks. My sister in law is signed off work with long covid symptoms. My teen niece (unvaxxed) is currently on day 3 of being in bed with it. They’re just the examples I can think of off the top of my tired head. No one is critically ill, happily and luckily I haven’t lost anyone close to me - but it’s really laying young, healthy people low, and I hate to think where Stu’s aunt and uncle would be if they weren’t jabbed and boosted. We need fewer people spreading it to vulnerable folk. But we should educate people, not force uptake - and the Welsh stance that 95% vaxxed is good enough seems sensible.
Dee, no offence, did you actually look at what I posted? Or did you you just put your own spin on the data?

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your family and friends being struck down by C19. You really seem to be in the centre of a wee s'hit storm of it. I hope all get better soon.

I guess I'm lucky, of all my big list of pals here and world wide, there's been only five cases of C19 amongst them all, none serious or ever needing hospitalisation.

I have no idea why that should be...in fact one of my closest of friends who got it back in Feb this year should be a gonner. She's 73, smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish and still does bank nursing at her local cottage hospital. When I heard she'd got it I genuinely thought she'd be done for. Nah, she felt mildly flu-y for a few days and was back on the front line 2 weeks later.

Enjoyed her company in Berlin for a week back in August and she was hale and hearty. The tails she told about what staff were ordered to put on death certificates disgusted me as much as it disgusted her having to do it.
 

Andrew B

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Or that increases in cases drives demands for tests up.

This time around, covid feels way more real. Two of my employees were very ill with it - one is still on part week working, he can’t manage a full week. My husband’s elderly aunt and uncle are currently really ill with it and on the edge of hospital. I have three friends that have been in bed for between a week and three weeks. My sister in law is signed off work with long covid symptoms. My teen niece (unvaxxed) is currently on day 3 of being in bed with it. They’re just the examples I can think of off the top of my tired head. No one is critically ill, happily and luckily I haven’t lost anyone close to me - but it’s really laying young, healthy people low, and I hate to think where Stu’s aunt and uncle would be if they weren’t jabbed and boosted. We need fewer people spreading it to vulnerable folk. But we should educate people, not force uptake - and the Welsh stance that 95% vaxxed is good enough seems sensible.
Sorry to hear that San and I hope they recover with no lasting effects. One eye opener for me was visiting my Autie and Uncle who are Jehovah’s Witnesses who contrary to what some folk think, have no religious grounds for not getting vaccinated and are in fact being encouraged to have it. After having my second jab, they showed me a video from their organisation that whilst they stressed wasn’t scientific it did show some incredible stats imo. I can’t recall the numbers but they were into the thousands and of those who had not had the vaccine some were hospitalised and some died. Again contrary to what some believe only a small number had some adverse effects and all recovered.
I’m not religious but I did trust that video of this guy basically laying it on the line that if they had really looked into this and would not be advising them to take something that would harm them, albeit they stated it was personal decision.

After all said and done this was put down as a matter of the sanctity of life and thinking of ones neighbour.
Imo it’s a shame that some like David Cameron lobbied and sought to make millions out of a worldwide disaster and so is it any wonder that some feel so confused about such a basic thing as lovings one neighbour?
 

Safranfoer

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Dee, no offence, did you actually look at what I posted? Or did you you just put your own spin on the data?

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your family and friends being struck down by C19. You really seem to be in the centre of a wee s'hit storm of it. I hope all get better soon.

I guess I'm lucky, of all my big list of pals here and world wide, there's been only five cases of C19 amongst them all, none serious or ever needing hospitalisation.

I have no idea why that should be...in fact one of my closest of friends who got it back in Feb this year should be a gonner. She's 73, smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish and still does bank nursing at her local cottage hospital. When I heard she'd got it I genuinely thought she'd be done for. Nah, she felt mildly flu-y for a few days and was back on the front line 2 weeks later.

Enjoyed her company in Berlin for a week back in August and she was hale and hearty. The tails she told about what staff were ordered to put on death certificates disgusted me as much as it disgusted her having to do it.
Yeah I did. It’s not spin though - more tests lead to more cases isn’t a surprise, is it? You think the government are testing more to justify restrictions, I think increases in testing are driven by more cases in the community. It’s a difference of opinion, no?

Thanks for the concern but it doesn’t feel like a shitstorm. Just a lot of people ill at the same time but doing ok. Feels more real though than any other time. I’m glad of the vaccine.

Smokers appear to have some protection against covid. A weird bonus. Glad your friend is ok x
 

westie4566

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Of course its a sh1tstorm, but I would ask you the question
Do you sack them now?and leave the care homes with no staff
or do you give them the chance to get vaxed while having the time to recruit more staff that are jabbed?
In the real world they would not have been hired in the first place if the care homes paid the wages that their fees would suggest they paid.
If they are scared of needles they are in the wrong job
If it is a religious thing they are in the wrong job
If they do not trust the nhs scientists they are in the wrong job.









OK Westie you are in charge what would you do sack them now or wait until you have replacements?.
Jeezo...didn't expect that attack!!

I'll try and answer to the best of my ability.

If the unvaxxed NHS staff and care home workers pose such a danger, then yes, sack the lot of them. (Note, I have included NHS staff too - you seemed to miss that bit.)

So, you seem to think they pose a grave danger to whom they are caring for, yet seem to feel it's OK for them to pose that danger as long as they have the jab in an almost 6 mnth timescale? (Would that be your timescale for hiring vaccinated replacements?)

I never said any NHS/care home staff were scared of needles...please quote where I did.

I never mentioned religion...please quote where I did.

I'm confused about your statement re trusting NHS scientists?? It wasn't the NHS that came up with the MRNA vaccine. Could you please expand on that one?

But to answer your almost hidden wee question at the bottom of your reply. I wouldn't sack a single one of them, nor would I threaten them with the sack if they decided not to have an experimental vaccine. A vaccine which, without doubt (and which is widely publicised by our own Govt.) does NOT prevent transmission, but may lessen serious symptoms in those vaccinated. So please clarify the differing threat to someone who is fully vaccinated from someone unvaccinated versus someone fully vaccinated who poses an equal 'threat' of transmission.
 

westie4566

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Yeah I did. It’s not spin though - more tests lead to more cases isn’t a surprise, is it? You think the government are testing more to justify restrictions, I think increases in testing are driven by more cases in the community. It’s a difference of opinion, no?

Thanks for the concern but it doesn’t feel like a shitstorm. Just a lot of people ill at the same time but doing ok. Feels more real though than any other time. I’m glad of the vaccine.

Smokers appear to have some protection against covid. A weird bonus. Glad your friend is ok x
Dee, I cannot speak for Englandshire, however every other week we get a wee 'spike' in advertising on the TV up here where the Scottish Govt. have ads urging everyone to take multiple tests a week. They coincide with a spike in testing and and a spike in 'cases'. The ads ramp down for a bit and so do the 'cases'.

Cause and effect?
 

Andrew B

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Dee, I cannot speak for Englandshire, however every other week we get a wee 'spike' in advertising on the TV up here where the Scottish Govt. have ads urging everyone to take multiple tests a week. They coincide with a spike in testing and and a spike in 'cases'. The ads ramp down for a bit and so do the 'cases'.

Cause and effect?
You know that’s one thing I haven’t had from the very start Westie. Every day I go up town and see a car park with a tent and at least ten folk with their hands in their pockets just waiting for someone to turn up?
Just like the ridiculous and costly track and trace, which seemed like a non starter from the get go, for the life of me I don’t understand why I keep getting requests to get tested something that I think I’ve done very well to stay clear of?

I understand it when visiting a care home but otherwise I don’t see the logic esp as were supposed to be under no restrictions and have had the vaccine twice?
😉 So Nano Bots and the number of the beast aside😂 There was a genuine and hilarious story of some American diplomats visiting China and being subjected to Anal Covid tests/examinations😂😂
Quite why we can be generally on the same page about this and yet being looked down upon for questioning the politics on this or in my case laugh instead of crying is quite strange in itself imo?
 

Salad Dodger

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Again, playing Devil's advocate - why should this be the case? The 'inmates' in the care homes should be double or triple vaxxed. So should, as we're led to believe by our glorious leaders be safe from serious illness from C19. Whether they get it from a vaxxed member of staff (remember the vaxxed can still spread it) or an unvaxxed member of staff. End result should be exactly the same, n'est pas????
As I said up thread, it’s about “duty of care” and “due diligence”

As either a Public/Private care home provider, you need to minimise risk. The covid vaccine, whilst not preventing anyone from catching and spreading the virus, it is the current best method of minimising risk.

It’s like wearing a hard hat on a building site, it won’t prevent things from hitting you on the head, but it is the most effective way of minimising serious harm.

No hard hat on a site, no working on the site.


One has been around for decades and is well proven with risks quantified......


Any guesses where I'm going with this?

Maybe people working in care have a better grasp of the risks than joe public.
Both have to pass the guidelines as set by the MHRA and deemed as safe, the flu jab has had the benefit of the passage of time.

What timescale would you put on the covid jab to be proven and the risks quantified? Bearing in mind the only other current effective way of controlling covid infection is Lockdown/Mask wearing etc.

A couple of grey areas, those who work in a care setting, but can’t have the vaccine due to medical reasons. Are they removed from their job role?

Because of the new law on care home staff vaccination, the current figure being quoted is that the care home sector has lost 8% of its workforce.

When these people apply for a new job and they are asked why they left their previous job, and they respond that it was because they wouldn’t take the vaccine.

Would that response diminish the chance of them gaining employment?

It’s a mess.
 

Safranfoer

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Dee, I cannot speak for Englandshire, however every other week we get a wee 'spike' in advertising on the TV up here where the Scottish Govt. have ads urging everyone to take multiple tests a week. They coincide with a spike in testing and and a spike in 'cases'. The ads ramp down for a bit and so do the 'cases'.

Cause and effect?
So they’re regularly encouraging testing up there to monitor the true population reach of the virus while picking up the asymptomatic cases, to stop them spreading to people that could catch it and become more ill, and therefore reduce the burden on your healthcare system? I can see a cause and effect - just different from yours. Because imo it’s good to keep people on high alert to the virus. Good to be a wee bit unsettling. We need to get everything back to normal - as it is - but a more mindful version of normal. Because then we pay attention to things like the ventilation of the room we are in, and stay just a tiny bit further away from people than we ordinarily might, and down here, wear a mask in confined spaces or places where old folk are - and get through this winter normally. If the price of getting back to normal is regularly being reminded there’s a virus out there so take a bit more care, keep testing to keep your family, school and workplace safe - I don’t see an issue. Cases do still translate through to deaths, albeit in wonderfully dramatically reduced numbers. I’m happy to be reminded every day, if it means fewer people die and I still get to go away for the weekend, out to the pub tonight… Don’t people want it to be over?

I heard on the radio that it’s from today that care home workers can’t work if they aren’t double vaxxed. Must be April for the NHS.
 

Hoddom

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Dee I'm crap at sharing links etc. However. if you can work through this one (I know that Alan (Mows) is better at sifting out the data on this one). It's a page that is updated for both Scotland and the Uk every day around 3pm.

Now if you click 'all' on case numbers, then scroll down to the next bit and click on testing...then click 'all' on that graph re daily tests, you'll see a direct correlation between the numbers tested and the daily 'cases'. Tests rise, cases rise. It's almost as if, when the Goct. want to 'turn the screws'. they ramp up testing to prove a point?

Or more get tested cos they are feeling unwell
 
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