Brexit

Safranfoer

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I agree. Achieving something we could have done anyway is not a victory. If the argument is, we wouldn't have done it - that wouldn't have been the EU's fault, it would have been ours. But given the UK had freedoms and flexibilities within the EU that other countries weren't afforded, I feel like it's talking us down to say we wouldn't have achieved what we did. Not least because Matt Hancock was apparently very hot off the blocks on vaccines because he'd seen Contagion and witnessed the vaccine wars. I have not seen Contagion so have no idea what this means. But. The will was apparently very strong.
 

mows

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I could reciprocate by saying you are implying we couldnt.
Couldnt is a good word to use in an argument. ;)

We cant say we would or wouldnt, BUT using Brexit as the reason we did is folly.
Clutching at straws for benefits again.
But as said earlier.
Could, has a different meaning in EU world.

we could have vetoed Junker.

in fact we DID veto Junker.

But as per th EUs definition of could.

We could only pick one option, and that was their pre ordained one.

Which meant that our could veto Junker was correct.

Because we opted for the pre ordained EU answer 2nd time round and chose Junker.

Just as we always could have done
 

bassfly

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I could reciprocate by saying you are implying we couldnt.
Couldnt is a good word to use in an argument. ;)

We cant say we would or wouldnt, BUT using Brexit as the reason we did is folly.
Clutching at straws for benefits again.
My point is that we will never know because we chose one path and not another.
I've had my vaccination but I could have easily not had it. We will never know.
Bail of straw somewhere, have you got it?
 

Safranfoer

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Other countries within the EU evidentially DID secure their own supplies. Germany has a bilateral deal with Pfizer for 30 million doses - the EU huffed a bit, did nothing.

The EU announced their vaccine scheme on 17 June:

We had already ordered 100 million Oxford vaccine doses by then, placing our order at some point before 24 May:

We not only could have been here, within the EU - I can't see why we wouldn't have been, based on the timeline. Falsely claiming a victory is as bad as scaremongering to suggest a loss.
 

salarchaser

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My point is that we will never know because we chose one path and not another.
I've had my vaccination but I could have easily not had it. We will never know.
Bail of straw somewhere, have you got it?
I have quite a few bales of straw in the shed. They weigh about half a tonne each.

As you say, we wont know.
The irony is, you are suggesting we got the vaccine early because we are out.
You cant say we wouldnt have got it early being in.
WE WON'T KNOW.
 

ozzyian

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Tell you what is ironic, remainers arguing that we shouldn't have left the EU on the basis that member nations needn't have been constrained and could have done what they wanted anyway. A better argument for total dissolution of it doesn't exist. :)
 
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Safranfoer

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Tell you what is ironic, remainers arguing that we shouldn't have left the EU on the basis that member nations needn't have been constrained and could have done what they wanted anyway. A better argument for total dissolution of it doesn't exist. :)
We're not arguing that. Well, I'm not. I'm just increasingly tired of people trying to claim post-Brexit successes that aren't. In the way you get tired of people claiming post-Brexit downsides, that aren't.
 

Nigel Passmore

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Other countries within the EU evidentially DID secure their own supplies. Germany has a bilateral deal with Pfizer for 30 million doses - the EU huffed a bit, did nothing.

The EU announced their vaccine scheme on 17 June:

We had already ordered 100 million Oxford vaccine doses by then, placing our order at some point before 24 May:

We not only could have been here, within the EU - I can't see why we wouldn't have been, based on the timeline. Falsely claiming a victory is as bad as scaremongering to suggest a loss.
Even the most fanatical of Rejoiners such as Adonis admit GB is ahead of the EU curve on C19 vaccines becasue we are not in EU. You can add to that many German/French politicians and Newspapers to touch on the tip of the iceberg of people and commentators making the same point. To argue otherwise puts you in a very singular place, which, of course, is your privilege in what remains of our ever shrinking democracy.

Regards

NHP
 

Safranfoer

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I haven't seen anything to suggest what Adonis says, is true. Is all. I can't even see evidence of him saying that, to see where the basis of his argument lies.
 
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Tangled

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It's a simple fact that the UK - and any other country in the EU - could have done it's own thing ordering vaccines. Hungary bought Sputnic V from Russia.

Whether we would have done it or not is an open question.There was a lot of pressure from France and Germany to order as a block - the benefit was that buying for all 27 nations reduced its price. Had we all done so, the EU's order would not have been derailed by ours. But who knows what we would have done; we wouldn't even have Boris as a PM.

It's moot; but the fact is that we could have gone alone if we were still in.
 

bassfly

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I have quite a few bales of straw in the shed. They weigh about half a tonne each.

As you say, we wont know.
The irony is, you are suggesting we got the vaccine early because we are out.
You cant say we wouldnt have got it early being in.
WE WON'T KNOW.
I never suggested that we got the vaccine early because we were out. We got the vaccine early because we ordered it early.
 

bassfly

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It's a simple fact that the UK - and any other country in the EU - could have done it's own thing ordering vaccines. Hungary bought Sputnic V from Russia.

Whether we would have done it or not is an open question.There was a lot of pressure from France and Germany to order as a block - the benefit was that buying for all 27 nations reduced its price. Had we all done so, the EU's order would not have been derailed by ours. But who knows what we would have done; we wouldn't even have Boris as a PM.

It's moot; but the fact is that we could have gone alone if we were still in.
The French wanted to order the French vaccine but it didn’t work so they got left a bit red faced and so tried to pass the buck. Typical.
 

salarchaser

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I never suggested that we got the vaccine early because we were out. We got the vaccine early because we ordered it early.
Seems a bit disingenuous given your post at 8824.

Lets just agree we may or may not be in the position we're in r.e. vaccine because we're out.
Also, we may or may not have been in the same position if we'd stayed in.
Either way, its not a victory for brexit.

Straw for sale. ;)
 

ozzyian

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We're not arguing that. Well, I'm not. I'm just increasingly tired of people trying to claim post-Brexit successes that aren't. In the way you get tired of people claiming post-Brexit downsides, that aren't.

No, just the usual doom and gloom 'London as a financial centre is overtaken by Amsterdam enjoy your poverty' rubbish
 

Elibank

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Other countries within the EU evidentially DID secure their own supplies. Germany has a bilateral deal with Pfizer for 30 million doses - the EU huffed a bit, did nothing.

The EU announced their vaccine scheme on 17 June:

We had already ordered 100 million Oxford vaccine doses by then, placing our order at some point before 24 May:

We not only could have been here, within the EU - I can't see why we wouldn't have been, based on the timeline. Falsely claiming a victory is as bad as scaremongering to suggest a loss.
The only thing worse than a bad loser is a bad winner...
 

Walleye

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Other countries within the EU evidentially DID secure their own supplies. Germany has a bilateral deal with Pfizer for 30 million doses - the EU huffed a bit, did nothing.

The EU announced their vaccine scheme on 17 June:

We had already ordered 100 million Oxford vaccine doses by then, placing our order at some point before 24 May:

We not only could have been here, within the EU - I can't see why we wouldn't have been, based on the timeline. Falsely claiming a victory is as bad as scaremongering to suggest a loss.
You forget that a few big EU countries made their own vaccine deals early on and the EU then "encouraged" them to get in bed with their own negotiations.
As far as I am aware, none of the deals done in those early days have been followed through. Iirc, Germany stated a week or so ago they would not be exercising their option on 30mill vaccines and would be sticking with the EU.

Had we remained in the EU, the political pressure on the UK to fall into line would have meant we would definitely have enrolled in the EU scheme. To say or think otherwise is just naive.
 

Safranfoer

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You forget that a few big EU countries made their own vaccine deals early on and the EU then "encouraged" them to get in bed with their own negotiations.
As far as I am aware, none of the deals done in those early days have been followed through. Iirc, Germany stated a week or so ago they would not be exercising their option on 30mill vaccines and would be sticking with the EU.

Had we remained in the EU, the political pressure on the UK to fall into line would have meant we would definitely have enrolled in the EU scheme. To say or think otherwise is just naive.
You don't know that. No one knows that. Me saying that we could be in the same place we are now is a fact. There is nothing untrue about the statement. You saying 'we definitely would have enrolled' is not a fact. We opted out of Maastricht, Schengen, the Monetary Union... and loads of things I don't remember or never knew about, no doubt. Where we are with the vaccines is brilliant, and it's a British success story. Isn't that enough?
 

ozzyian

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So that = Brexit rubbish, and our vaccine programme = Brexit success...? Do you not SEE...?

Who you talking to? I never initate post brexit comment on that basis. couldn't give a stuff. Only ever react against the headache inducers. I'm looking forward. Unlike of course every miserable backward looking remoaner, who CANNOT get over it. Or maybe they just whine and moan about everything. Or maybe it's a bit of a British cultural thing where 20% of the population are glum, especially in winter? What do you think?
 

Safranfoer

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Who you talking to? I never initate post brexit comment on that basis. couldn't give a stuff. Only ever react against the headache inducers. I'm looking forward. Unlike of course every miserable backward looking remoaner, who CANNOT get over it. Or maybe they just whine and moan about everything. Or maybe it's a bit of a British cultural thing where 20% of the population are glum, especially in winter? What do you think?
I'm REALLY glum right now. Could be something in that.
 

ozzyian

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It was a beautiful crisp sunny Scottish day today, bright and clear, I noticed at 5.40 it was still pretty light too especially with the snow. I also spied my landlord scuttling away to avoid me (as well he should) - that was pretty good. Not everything is miserable :) The media certainly isn't helping the people either, it's like a rather nasty and addictive drug. Don't do the media drug kids!
 

Walleye

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You don't know that. No one knows that. Me saying that we could be in the same place we are now is a fact. There is nothing untrue about the statement. You saying 'we definitely would have enrolled' is not a fact. We opted out of Maastricht, Schengen, the Monetary Union... and loads of things I don't remember or never knew about, no doubt. Where we are with the vaccines is brilliant, and it's a British success story. Isn't that enough?
I could land a 50lb salmon on the Wear, hit a hole in one while playing in the British Open or score with Rachel Riley. However, due to the very low probability of any or all of those actually happening, I would be naive in thinking they could.
 

Safranfoer

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I could land a 50lb salmon on the Wear, hit a hole in one while playing in the British Open or score with Rachel Riley. However, due to the very low probability of any or all of those actually happening, I would be naive in thinking they could.
If you’re right, all you’re illustrating really is that any problems we had with being a member of the EU were down to us, not them. Though I’m looking at the things we didn’t take part in - bigger things than a one-off procurement programme - and still thinking you’re wrong. You just need to have more faith in Britain... Stop talking her down... ;-)
 
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