A Question For Thinking Anglers

keirstream

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Bull shi**ers not allowed in this theoretical discussion please.:lol:
Scientific theories welcome from MCXFisher and Seeking. (where are you Chris?)
Only just remember that the hypothesis cannot be proved but the null hypothesis can be.:nod:
Please study the photos below of 3 recent fish and a banana fly.

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You will notice that the top 2 fish are both hooked in the classical position, i.e. firmly in the scissors. This is where you hope to hook fish and it generally is the case that it does as the fish rises or moves forward to the fly, takes and turns sliding the hooks nicely into that position (unless you react too quickly and snatch at the take then anything can happen). Classic.:thumb:
Now look at the 3rd fish with the hooks firmly embedded in the upper snout or neb as I like to call it. A clear sign of a fish reacting angrily at the lure and attacking it aggressively.
Now study the fly. The fly swims as you see it photographed, with the weight of the hooks ensuring that they fish downwards in the water.
The question is, how come, with such an angry fish snapping at that fly, the fly can turn upside down and implant the hooks in the upper mouth cavity?
I will fill a glass and await the collective wisdom.:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

mc andy

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I always put my double in hooks down, but if using silicone sleeve the hook investabley twists round fishing upside down. (. How long this takes to happen can seem to vary). So would answer your question.
 
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pfeul

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Obvious and as clear as red wine:

he was tanning his belly upside down when suddenly the fly passed in front of him

another question? I'll be happy to reply :)
 

Hemmy

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That’s the sort of question asked by a smug angler whose just caught three march springers and now finds himself with too much time on his hands......I’m not playing 🤣🤣🤣
 
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Firstly, congratulations on your recent fish. Secondly, your answer is quite simple. The fish took the fly as it might an upstream lure where such hooking positions are normal. Your fish swam ahead of the lure turned and took it downstream going up towards it and thus the hooks where they are. I accept this is unusual in 'Spring' but not unusual in salmon fishing generally.

Regards

NHP
 

Saint Andrews

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He just wanted to post his 3 fish again :thumb::D
Made me chuckle that... made me think too.... if I'd caught those three in March over a couple of sessions I'd be posting them a dam sight more than a couple of times, they'd be posted at every opportunity, no matter how trivial or minuscule the reason! and rightly justified too! Lol
 
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MCXFisher

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When you look at the Icelandic underwater film of salmon taking flies linked in my post Crash! Bang! Pluck! -The Dynamic of the Take, you see all manner of crazy things happening as the fish approach, mouth, chew and eject flies. Given that regime I suggest that you can expect odd hookings to arise. A normal take and turn gives the classic lower jaw scissors hooking on the opposite side to where you’re fishing (e.g. left bank right side of jaw). But otherwise it’s random.
 

keirstream

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Firstly, congratulations on your recent fish. Secondly, your answer is quite simple. The fish took the fly as it might an upstream lure where such hooking positions are normal. Your fish swam ahead of the lure turned and took it downstream going up towards it and thus the hooks where they are. I accept this is unusual in 'Spring' but not unusual in salmon fishing generally.

Regards

NHP
Very sensible thought process there Nigel.:thumb:
I would go with that analogy in the absence of any other theories.
It sounds just------well--------right.:nod::nod:
 

keirstream

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But otherwise it’s random.
I have looked at your very informative blogs for years now Michael, and thank you for posting such interesting and informative works.
However, on this occasion, your theory strikes me as just too--------well-------random.:lol:
 

Lamson v10

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I always have my doubles facing upwards when fishing long winged fly's and it's the only time I seem to hook fish in the snib
 

MCXFisher

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As I’ve said before, it’s fishing, not nuclear physics.

In the world of Falkus’ “outrageous fluke” I’m not sure that neat theories apply.
 

Rrrr

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I always have my doubles facing upwards when fishing long winged fly's and it's the only time I seem to hook fish in the snib
Ive been shown to do the same by an old angler in our club that catches alot more than i do. He rekons that it stops as many fresh fish coming off as the mouths not as soft at the top. Plus it seems to minimise tail/wing wrap which is a bonus. Sounded good enough for me to start doing it anyway.


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Hardyreels

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The 'neb'?

No no, that's the Jib, you hooked him in the jib that one :lol:

The no bullshatters rule may well disqualify me but my best guess would be.... I strive to make flies which maintain an upright posture as they come under tension on a tight line and in the current. However, all the unknown dynamics playing at my flies as they cross different currents under different levels of tension no doubt cause them to flip and twist to some extent. At least I believe they may.

I hook a few each year in the jib :wow: like your third fish but have never given this any deep thought. Now that you've ask it I'm left thinking that either the fly was upside down when struck or it flipped over during the event of the fish grabbing hold of it.

By the way, did I mention that those are absolutely beautiful examples of salmon :shocked:
 

Rrrr

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The 'neb'?

No no, that's the Jib, you hooked him in the jib that one

The no bullshatters rule may well disqualify me but my best guess would be.... I strive to make flies which maintain an upright posture as they come under tension on a tight line and in the current. However, all the unknown dynamics playing at my flies as they cross different currents under different levels of tension no doubt cause them to flip and twist to some extent. At least I believe they may.

I hook a few each year in the jib :wow: like your third fish but have never given this any deep thought. Now that you've ask it I'm left thinking that either the fly was upside down when struck or it flipped over during the event of the fish grabbing hold of it.

By the way, did I mention that those are absolutely beautiful examples of salmon :shocked:
Thats sort of the way i see it happening too, the fly is twisting in the current so if the flees at one angle and the fish also turns slightly at the opposite angle you will be near enough 180 degrees out, the rest could be made up with the vortex of the fly entering the mouth or pushed around by the chomp on the fly.

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charlieH

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Now study the fly. The fly swims as you see it photographed, with the weight of the hooks ensuring that they fish downwards in the water.
Are you sure about this? As I understand it - from people who have conducted experiments into such matters - if you tie a bare hook to a length of leader and suspend it in a current, its natural inclination is to fish point(s) upwards. It might therefore follow that if the hook was at all loose in the rubber tubing (or the rubber loose on the tube itself), it could work round so as to be fishing in its natural plane. I can't tell from the first two pictures exactly where the hooks were, but in the first one, at least, it looks as though it might in fact have also been in the upper jaw - in or around the maxillary bone.

As to why it was further forward in the jaw, I wonder whether the third fish was perhaps more directly downstream of you than the other two when it took? A fish that is hooked while the line is still at a nice angle from the bank will be more likely to have the hook in the scissors, but it's pretty standard for one that takes more or less on the dangle to be hooked further forward in the mouth. Or, as a final thought, it's not unknown for a fly to move in a fish's mouth while playing it; if the original hookhold comes loose, the fly will sometimes reattach itself elsewhere in the mouth.

Incidentally, I reckon there's a fine line between being a thinking angler and being an over-thinking angler! So when you're actually on the riverbank rather than at a keyboard, your success with these three fabulous fish would indicate that you should probably just keep on doing whatever you have been doing, without over-analysing exactly what 'it' is! ;)
 
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Congrats on three cracking fish, kierstream.
Can you discount the possibility that the hooks moved during the fight, finally embedding in the neb?
If not then, perhaps.
 
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SP8

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I always put my double in hooks down, but if using silicone sleeve the hook investabley twists round fishing upside down. (. How long this takes to happen can seem to vary). So would answer your question.
I've noticed this too and it would account for the upper mouth hooking. I actually put the double in "upside down" now for the reasons stated on another response, less wing tangling and hopefully better hooking.

SP8
 

keirstream

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Are you sure about this? As I understand it - from people who have conducted experiments into such matters - if you tie a bare hook to a length of leader and suspend it in a current, its natural inclination is to fish point(s) upwards. It might therefore follow that if the hook was at all loose in the rubber tubing (or the rubber loose on the tube itself), it could work round so as to be fishing in its natural plane. I can't tell from the first two pictures exactly where the hooks were, but in the first one, at least, it looks as though it might in fact have also been in the upper jaw - in or around the maxillary bone.

As to why it was further forward in the jaw, I wonder whether the third fish was perhaps more directly downstream of you than the other two when it took? A fish that is hooked while the line is still at a nice angle from the bank will be more likely to have the hook in the scissors, but it's pretty standard for one that takes more or less on the dangle to be hooked further forward in the mouth. Or, as a final thought, it's not unknown for a fly to move in a fish's mouth while playing it; if the original hookhold comes loose, the fly will sometimes reattach itself elsewhere in the mouth.

Incidentally, I reckon there's a fine line between being a thinking angler and being an over-thinking angler! So when you're actually on the riverbank rather than at a keyboard, your success with these three fabulous fish would indicate that you should probably just keep on doing whatever you have been doing, without over-analysing exactly what 'it' is! ;)
Charlie, thought provoking and thoughtful response. You will understand that this is a bit of fun as we don't REALLY know what happens. However, to answer your various questions;
If you swim a fly in a stream and watch it, the natural position is for it to swim hooks down.
The hook was solidly fixed into tight silicone tubing with no chance of movement. The 1st 2 were hooked solidly in the scissors.
You are correct about the relative positions of fishes 1 & 2 at 45 degrees, fish 3 was hooked at around 65-70 degrees downstream. Of course there is a possibility of a moved hook hold but given the ferocity of the 3rd take compared to the gentle lift and turn of 1 & 2 I would suggest not. The hook was buried on the take I'm sure.
The only things I think of by the river is height, colour and current strength, all of which influences choice of fly and tip as you would do yourself. I never worry about where it is hooked but dislike a head shaker. That's bad news.:(
 

Neil W

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It was clearly doing back stroke. I don’t like swimming but for some reason back stroke was ok so if I took a fly it would probably get me in the top lip.


I agree with the random comment. Nice rod and reel combo
 
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