A fewew questions on Flamerthrowers

Slaneybs

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I decided to tie a few flamethrowers on some new to me Patriot size 8 singles to see how the hooks tie and whether I could do a decent job on the pattern.
As it is not a fly i would normally use or tie I have a few questions.
Is the shape ok and is it impacted by tying on a single?
I have not put the pearl head on the majority of them - do people see it as important?
It is not clear from the sources, including the inventor's SBS https://flyfishing-and-flytying.co.uk/articles/view/a_new_flame/ if the black section of the body has a rib or is left plain. What is the normal tying? to me it looks a bit strange without a rib.
i found it difficult to get a satisfactory head on the patriot - seems you need to leave considerably more space behind the eye than normal or else the thread encroaches too far over the eye. Have others had the same issue?
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Jockiescott

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Those will fish just fine. :thumb:

I have never bought a patriot hook of any kind, either single or double, as I am not particularly drawn to them. I feel they are too expensive and I'm not overly fussed on the shape nor am I a fan of black nickel hooks. When I see the green and red hooks they've produced I cringe. Why could they not have put the same effort into producing a proper black hook? The mind boggles.

I was sent a few singles to try in larger sizes and I found them OK to tie on.

Personally, I find single hooks do not look as good for Flamethrowers as doubles. That is a personal opinion and I know for a fact that the fish don't mind as I've caught fish on Flamethrowers tied on singles. I've never used a shiny head either for my own flies.

I never really liked one wing tied in the middle so I always split my wing and tie half in the middle and half at the front under the hackle. It allows for different colours to be used too.

As I said, your Flamethrowers will definitely catch fish. That is not in question. ;)

Edit: I've always ribbed the front half too.
 
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charlieH

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Personal opinion only, but taking your points in order:

I decided to tie a few flamethrowers on some new to me Patriot size 8 singles to see how the hooks tie and whether I could do a decent job on the pattern.
As it is not a fly i would normally use or tie I have a few questions.
1.Is the shape ok and is it impacted by tying on a single?
2.I have not put the pearl head on the majority of them - do people see it as important?
3.It is not clear from the sources, including the inventor's SBS https://flyfishing-and-flytying.co.uk/articles/view/a_new_flame/ if the black section of the body has a rib or is left plain. What is the normal tying? to me it looks a bit strange without a rib.
4.i found it difficult to get a satisfactory head on the patriot - seems you need to leave considerably more space behind the eye than normal or else the thread encroaches too far over the eye. Have others had the same issue?
1. The profile look fine to me, and they'd all catch fish without a doubt. I like the top one best; the dressing (esp. the hackles) on the bottom one is a bit too flared out for my taste, though this would no doubt be rectified once it's in the water. And I know that the original instructions say not to stack the bucktail in order to keep a nice taper, but again the wing on the bottom one is a bit too wispy for me. I'd be inclined to give it a bit of a hand stack - though you certainly want to avoid the paintbrush look. I haven't tried flamethrowers on singles, but to my eyes they suit Patriot doubles well (JS and I may disagree on the subject of Patriots; I like the shape and really love the black nickel finish, though I'm with him on the red or green ones!).

2. I do give my flamethrowers a pearl head, but that's really just out of respect to Duncan Egan, and I do try to respect an original tying where possible. It's a little fiddly, but I'm not tying commercially, so don't mind an extra minute or two in the tying. I doubt the fish care much!

3. I think the original doesn't have a rib on the front body. We're all so used to seeing ribbed bodies that it can look a bit odd during the tying, but in reality the dressing covers it (looking at your picture, I can just see a glint of ribbing on the third one, but can't tell whether you've ribbed the top two or not). Personally, I often use some sort of sparkly dubbing on the front section, as it's hard to avoid this being a bit cone-shaped which i don't like, and the dubbing helps to hide that. But again I doubt it really makes any difference to the fish.

4. I don't particularly find space at the head a problem with Patriots, but it can be with Flamethrowers, whatever hook you use. My first efforts at the style ended up too congested, and you do need to leave lots of space. I can still get this wrong when I start to tie a batch.
 

FaughanPurple

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I have to say the Flamethrower was one that I found difficult to get the proportions on right, at the start as well. Eventually I just tyed a Tailfire type fly but put the tail above the middle hackle. But to answer your questions

1. Your flies are fine and yes the fly profile will be impacted depending on whether you use a double, a single or varying brands of hooks. Most brands will differ in their hooks and Singles generally have a slightly longer shank than doubles of the same size, so the fly often wont look as “dumpy” on a single if you're tyeing to the hook and not the fly. if you know what I mean.

2. To catch fish no, to stay true to the original yes. My most successful variant, which is a McCormick's style FL, had simply a black head no pearl tinsel and tyed on No.11 Gold Salar.


3. If using floss on the front body I wont rib but if using a lite bite type dubbing I will. I find Dubbing with a fine rib helps keep the bulk down but I rarely rib the rear section these days. I use braid or UTC over coloured thread with a dab of superglue underneath on both.

4. As I said in my opening paragraph, I struggled with the proportions when starting to tye this fly. Doubles were particularly bad due to being a bit shorter on the shank than most singles. It’s why I sat down with the tail-less Tailfire in mind to try and get the proportions right as I was doing these fine but everything went skewiff when I moved the tail slightly up the shank for some reason. Eventually with practise it comes but Even now it would take 3 flies maybe even half dozen of this style or any for that matter before I get my bearings again I reckon. Its weird the way your eyes dial in and out on your tyeing.
 

Jockiescott

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I've been looking back through some of the Flamethrowers I've tied. I'll be honest in saying that it is not a style I tie or fish too often.

I haven't tied too many of Duncan Egan's original types. The last ones I did tie were a few years ago and sold for charity. On those, I did use a shiny head.

Most FT types I've tied in recent years were variants of Irish Shrimps or other colour combinations of established patterns. I had a fish this season past on an Ally's Shrimp with the tail moved to the middle. Was this then a Flamethrower? I'm not sure but I didn't use a shiny head. Another I've tied was based on the Green Silk Irish Shrimp and just used a black head.

So, it appears that I would use a shiny head if attempting some of Duncan's originals but for my own variants, I don't.

FP, the McCormick's tied as a FT is deadly! 😉
 

Slaneybs

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Thanks

Jockie, Charlie H and FP
Thanks to the 3 of you for the speedy helpful responses.
That's what I like about this forum you can always be sure of a positive response unless of course you are looking for a comment from either side of the Brexit or C&R debates - and even there most people (with one or two exceptions) are polite and considered.
Thanks.
 

easky

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they look good Slaney and as others have said I have no doubt all will catch. :thumb:

My personal preference would be for the profile of your first, though the second is the closest to the 'wedge shape' of Duncan's originals. I saw him tying them years back at an GAC open day and he was quite particular that they should have this overall swept back wedge look as it gives the classic teardrop profile.

Its a style that I like tying but for some reason don't actually fish that much with them - like others I like to do a variant with a front wing as well as the middle one. I also like to use a pearl tinsel rib over the black body as it shines out nicely between the hackles. From memory Duncan's didn't have a front rib and I think he said it didn't really matter as his are tied quite densely (front hackle in particular) and so you don't see much of the under front body.

The front tinsel heads look nice but can be a right pain to tie and also sometimes aren't the most durable fishing wise. Again personally I found the key to tying them consistently was to make the head as level as possible, any significant slope at all and its very hard to keep the tinsel from slipping.

Here's a spring Flamethrower I tied a while back - again a variant with the black front wing. The heads are even more tricky on down eyes as the tinsel will do its level best to try and slip down over the eye :D

Black and Yellow Flamethrower 2.jpg

And same fly in the lightbox and with a proper camera

Spring FF.jpg
 
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Clydebuilt

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For what its worth slaneybs, here's how I generally tie using the profile/method of the flamethrower.

They are certainly not as nice as Duncan Egan's by a long way and do differ from the original as I don't always use a pearl head etc but
I suppose imitation is a sincere form of flattery (...if a lowest level of imagination :lol: )

I try not to leave the front hackle too long and mostly rib the front half body but with this variant, I only used a beard hackle.

I do think they suit a double better than a single though.

Patriot
IMAG5093_1.jpg

Omiting the JC on this variant
Code P
IMAG4420_1.jpg

Using currys red colour scheme for this one and JC cloaked with front hackle

Patriot
PhotoEditor_20190905_181709046_1.jpg

I also tend to tie close to the eye, it's a bad habit but I don't use a turle knot...

I appreciate they are not as nice as the originals , certainly less dense, but that's the beauty of tying, you can adjust or alter the style to suit what you like. (Unless you want to tie the exact pattern of course), anyway, just my amateur take on things but hope it helps a bit.

Cheers


Edit: I always thought the original incorporated a fritz material on the front half but maybe not.
 
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Slaneybs

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For what its worth slaneybs, here's how I generally tie using the profile/method of the flamethrower.
Thanks Clydebuilt
I really like the Thunder & Lightening version (the first one) but would very happily fish with any of them. You have definitely got the shape closer to the only original I have seen.
I agree they look better on doubles but having got used to our old single barbless hook rule ( although since last season they also allow barbless doubles) I find doubles hard to tie on and keep spiking my fingers.
The SBS I referenced in the original post, which I think was by Duncan Egan himself, definitely used black floss rather than fritz.
The heads on the flies in the photo are I would have thought perfectly placed - I sometimes find I am half covering the actual eye with the tying silk.
 

gwelsher

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Lots of good advice already so I will just stick :lol: to the hook.
Having tied on those Patriots I found the surface very slippy and difficult to stop the thread creeping around both tying in to start and when making the head. I found that lots of good wax helped things a lot. I always use wax on all flies but plastered it on for these hooks.
 

flyman

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I am a great fan of Flamethrowers.I have caught a lot of fish with them.I will try to post some from Duncan.if I get a chance.
 

Lamson v10

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I've never had one of Duncans original fly's in my hand and have only seen a few Pic's of them but I quite like tying in the flamethrower style and would probably say that the one's that I have tyed would be most definitely variants

I also like the tinsel head but wether it actually makes a difference? Well you'll have to ask the fish that one :nod:
I've also never had a problem with tying the the tinsel head or it's durability , my method is to tie in the tinsel do half a wrap and smear a small amount of super glue onto the tinsel and continue to wrap around the head then add two or three coats of varnish :thumb:
I sometimes also put a rib on the front section

A few Pic's of some that I've posted previously

Willie Gunn
DSC_0004.JPG

Kinermoney Tigertail
DSC_0003.JPG

Red And Yellow
DSC_0133.JPG

Yellow And Orange
DSC_0050.JPG

Orange And Yellow
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Executioner
_20180322_173111.JPG

Spring One's (copied Easky's)
_20180218_180629.JPG

Tigertail Waddintons
_20190110_151157.JPG
 

Jockiescott

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Fantastic post LV10!!! :thumb:

That wee Executioner will be replicated quite a few times for my boxes along with a few others!!! :eek:
 

Clydebuilt

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Jeeso Lamson, they are all beautifully tied... but as Jockie points out.....that Executioner....ooft...:thumb:

Defo one for the copy book!!!!
 

Slaneybs

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A few Pic's of some that I've posted previously
Many thanks for these - they are all winners to be sure. Also very much true to what I understand to be the "proper" shape.
Putting them together like that gives plenty of encouragement to try a few more. In particular the spring yellow and black could be a real killer especially with a little more black in the wing. Great selection.
 

Lamson v10

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Fantastic post LV10!!! :thumb:

That wee Executioner will be replicated quite a few times for my boxes along with a few others!!! :eek:
Thank's jockiescott :thumb: the Executioner has had a few fish for the people I passed a few on to which is always good to hear :) if you can remember the park shrimp one I posted a few years back it's done not to badly either

Arnold
 

Lamson v10

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Jeeso Lamson, they are all beautifully tied... but as Jockie points out.....that Executioner....ooft...:thumb:

Defo one for the copy book!!!!
Thank you, much appreciated clydebuilt :thumb: the Executioner one is probably my favourite since I started tying salmon fly's :nod:

Arnold
 
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Slaneysider

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Think the most important part of any fly is the materials that are used , those indian cock capes not great to use better off with a whiting or metz cape even though they are expensive it’s money well spent at the end of the day .
 

FaughanPurple

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Think the most important part of any fly is the materials that are used , those indian cock capes not great to use better off with a whiting or metz cape even though they are expensive it’s money well spent at the end of the day .
I've not bought a Cape over £8.50 in 10 years.

All my capes are Indian cock necks or saddles, although I prefer saddles.

Buying expensive capes doesn't guarantee anything other than more cost
 

Slaneybs

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I have just flicked through Lamson V10's thread started history - there is an incredible selection of flies. enough to keep anyone curious very busy for several hours. Great tying. several posts on flamethrowers to be sure.
 

Jockiescott

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I have just flicked through Lamson V10's thread started history - there is an incredible selection of flies. enough to keep anyone curious very busy for several hours. Great tying. several posts on flamethrowers to be sure.
Some of the best flies ever to grace this forum are by Lamson V10. Everything so sharp, neat and tidy. I don't think I've seen anyone who can tie such great flies with heads so consistent.

If he would just leave that auld bicycle down for a while and tie an odd fly or two again for the forum, I for one would greatly appreciate it! :D
 
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