5 FOOT FASTSINK POLYLEADER.

MCXFisher

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Lets say you medium sized river and walking pace push of water, what sort of depth would you expect with 5ft and 10ft poly leader of various sink rates?

I’m afraid that this is one of those ’length of string’ questions because there are so many variables:
The density of the fly, as I described above
The nature and length of the tippet material - Maxima is buoyant, fluorocarbon sinks
The angle of your cast relative to the flow - the more square the cast the more it may sink before hydrodynamic lift comes into play
Whether or not you strip in line
Whereabouts in the swing you measure the depth - it won’t be the same throughout

Thus a sparsely dressed fly on the end of a 5 foot polyleader and 8 feet of Seaguar cast square and not stripped may fish up to a foot deeper than a bushy fly on a 5 foot polyleader and 8 feet of Maxima cast at 45 degrees and retrieved with a brisk figure of eight.

As Rennie noted above, in the face of so many variables you can only experiment and apply judgement.
 

Rrrr

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I tend to find casting just upstream of square (if allowed) helps the fly get down with polyleaders. It gives the fly a chamce to sink before the current gets hold of it.

Also for low water ive got some custom sink tips made of cut down polys and wf10 di7 saltwater line. They range from 18 inches long to about 3 foot and are good for getting the fly down quick but not get snagged up.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 

JirkaK

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Is it possible for a weighted fly to sit above the line/tip?
I can only picture it in my mind and I can't get my head around it?
I can't picture a weighted fly sitting above the sink tip, I'm thinking equal water pressure top and bottom of the fly making the fly hang in the position of least resistance = immediately opposite the sink tip depth?

I'm also picturing a booby drawing relatively level if you give a pull.

I've read it a number of times but could never fathom it out would you mind explaining?

Thanks Al
In conditions of laminar flow I believe that unweighted fly can fish above the fly line tip only if the line in given moment is sinking faster than the fly. When the line is under the tension during swing the fly follows the trajectory of the line tip or the fastest sinking part of the system. The only exception is hitched fly.
 

acerspader

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Being brutally honest, I wouldn't expect much at all from a 5ft poly. purely on its own, as said before keeping the flee from skating and maybe getting 1ft or so with the fastest LSR24 version.It won't offer much in the way of a good leader arrangement at all either as in my opinion it'll be too short!.
The 10ft polys. will take a bit longer to settle in the current, but will hold depth better and due to their extra length gain more depth.
The Hover is useful for keeping a flee from getting too deep!, the Inty and Green tips will both manage depth control in the top 1ft of water.Brown is pretty useful in faster deeper water.
The LSR16 and LSR 24, will both get you down!, but don't expect miracles, 3ft maybe?.
Obviously the careful choice of flee and how its weighted will be a considerable factor in this!.
The 10ft polys. will also give you that total leader length that maybe you should be looking for!, for reasons of more than depth control!.
The thing is, every river and every circumstance is different, the sink rates quoted on packaging are there as a guide and to be interpreted by you to best effect.Pretty much obvious that the faster sink rate of poly, the deeper it will get and the quicker and better it will hold its depth!
AllI can say is to try them out yourself and see what's what and how deep they'll fish on your waters.
To this day I'll rig a poly and let it all trail in the water close to me and see how deep its getting with a flee on and make a guess how its all likely to fish.
Comes a time when polys simply aren't enough, then I reach for a Multi Tip line or a dedicated full sinking head.I hasten to add I still use polys on those two!, flexibility is no bad thing in Salmon Fishing! as is a good leader arrangement (he says harping on for the umpteenth time!).
Oh!, unless I'm absolutely familiar with where I'm going to be fishing and I'm absolutely sure of the conditions, I wait untill the day of fishing and actually being on the river bank before choosing a poly to use!- might not even need one!.
And just so you know, a Fluro carbon tapered leader will sink at the same sink rate as an Intermediate poly.
Best of luck with it, oh and don't just buy one poly!, its the best investment you'll make in buying the full set of 10ft polys. in a neat little wallet, get them all rung up with leader rings and off you jolly well go!
Pedro.

Pedro, thank you for your detailed response. Im interested in your leader set up for different fly line set ups. What leader length and poly set up do you use for floating lines, multi tip and full sinking lines?
 

Rennie

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Well acerspader, for floating lines and maybe intermediate sink tip lines I have two basic set ups.Either a 10ft Mono or Fluro. tapered leader coupled to 6 ft of Fluro.tippet material to the flee. If I need to control depth more effectively then I swop the tapered leader out for an appropriate poly.
Thats my system and it works very well, on casting, presentation and depth control.All the time I'm casting the same length of leader in total, it helps with casting, gives predictable anchor and great turn over 99.9% of the time.
For my multi tip lines- the Guideline DDC kits which I use - with any of the 15ft sinking tips I use a 5ft sinking poly of an equivalent sink rate or often faster, coupled to 5ft of tippet and then the flee.Again I cast the same length of leader all the time (in this case 10ft), it gives me a graduated sinking tip likened to 3D lines with a steady curve down to the flee.I find much better and direct contact to the flee like this.
For full sinking heads, occasionally with slow or fast Inty heads I'll use a 10ft Fluro tapered leader to 5ft of Fluro tippet and then the flee, more likely though I'll have a 10ft poly of a matching or quicker sink rate and 5ft ish of tippet to the flee.
Again I'm casting the same length of leader every time, its predictable and gives good presentation and excellent turn over (yes it DOES matter with sinking lines!), also I can always fine tune the business end if I have to, going a bit faster etc.For that reason I tend to pick a head thats a tadge slower than I need and take the business end down with a slightly faster tip.This gets the flee where it should be, but not the whole line!, which is less likely to spook fish by passing amongst them or worse still foul hook fish.
I always try and leave room for a bit of juggling round with things to suit conditions or if I NEED a heavier flee and fast poly, I'll shorten the tippet etc if needed.
Especially with Multi tip lines and sinking lines I find the worst thing you can do is be stuck with a line thats too fast, or too slow when its obviously not right, so I give myself wriggle room to adjust as needed.
Hope that helps.
Pedro.
 

acerspader

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Well acerspader, for floating lines and maybe intermediate sink tip lines I have two basic set ups.Either a 10ft Mono or Fluro. tapered leader coupled to 6 ft of Fluro.tippet material to the flee. If I need to control depth more effectively then I swop the tapered leader out for an appropriate poly.
Thats my system and it works very well, on casting, presentation and depth control.All the time I'm casting the same length of leader in total, it helps with casting, gives predictable anchor and great turn over 99.9% of the time.
For my multi tip lines- the Guideline DDC kits which I use - with any of the 15ft sinking tips I use a 5ft sinking poly of an equivalent sink rate or often faster, coupled to 5ft of tippet and then the flee.Again I cast the same length of leader all the time (in this case 10ft), it gives me a graduated sinking tip likened to 3D lines with a steady curve down to the flee.I find much better and direct contact to the flee like this.
For full sinking heads, occasionally with slow or fast Inty heads I'll use a 10ft Fluro tapered leader to 5ft of Fluro tippet and then the flee, more likely though I'll have a 10ft poly of a matching or quicker sink rate and 5ft ish of tippet to the flee.
Again I'm casting the same length of leader every time, its predictable and gives good presentation and excellent turn over (yes it DOES matter with sinking lines!), also I can always fine tune the business end if I have to, going a bit faster etc.For that reason I tend to pick a head thats a tadge slower than I need and take the business end down with a slightly faster tip.This gets the flee where it should be, but not the whole line!, which is less likely to spook fish by passing amongst them or worse still foul hook fish.
I always try and leave room for a bit of juggling round with things to suit conditions or if I NEED a heavier flee and fast poly, I'll shorten the tippet etc if needed.
Especially with Multi tip lines and sinking lines I find the worst thing you can do is be stuck with a line thats too fast, or too slow when its obviously not right, so I give myself wriggle room to adjust as needed.
Hope that helps.
Pedro.

Thanks Pedro,

I have Mackenzie multi tip fly line with 15ft tip and have tried 10ft poly leader and it struggled to turn over. Have tried 5ft polys on floating tip and intermediate but never thought of using a poly in the sinking 3/4 or sink 6/7 tips. Would a fast sinking poly leader say 5 foot 7 inch per second sink the same as a sink 6/7 15tip?

Would you adjust your leader for a dressed fly, conehead or heavier say copper tube?

I also fish full sinking shooting heads in sink 2/3 and 3/4 mackenzie but never used with poly leaders. I must try this season if conditions dictate.
 

Rennie

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Yes acerspader it should match up ok, or at the worst there wont't be very much in them at all.I do that on my Guideline tips.
In fact I've found doing it that way has eliminated any need I had to fish a Skagit set up.
I personally much prefer 20ft of graduated sinking tip over a single density shorter faster tip every time, gives far better in the water presentation!
I might consider shortening the tippet by a bit if I were on a big copper or tungsten tube, but not less than 3ft, I've never found the need to!
As for your full sinkers, it does work!, I too use Mackenzie sinkers on my bigger 16fters and they cope ok with 10ft polys, but on my 15ft rod I prefer the original Guideline double density sinkers in short cut which are shorter and handle the 10ft polys perfect.Depending on your casting skills and comfort zone with the Mackenzie lines being longer you might prefer the 5ft polys?,I'd suggest trying and see.
I should also perhaps bring up I prefer Guideline heads or similar which are Airflo produced, the sinking rates of which are pretty well sympathetic with the Airflo Poly tips.
Its a system that works for me and I have full confidence in.
Pedro.
 

Hardyreels

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Has everyone forgot hardyreels method with a 5 foot polys ?

I spotted that :)

There are some conditions that I find almost unfishable by fly although they are few even here in Alaska they exist. In all other circumstances I use what I'd call a Mini Head. I fished this year with a fellow who turns to a Skagit head and 10 foot sink tip along with a very heavy fly to attain depths. Somehow I still managed to either remain even or to pull ahead on the number of salmon caught if any one were counting ;)

If you have any curiosity with regard to what Left Hand Up or I am talking about just type 'Streamer Fishing Techniques by Ard' into a search on the www and you should find a you tube video that may or may not be of interest. I did not spend a great deal of time in describing the leader rigging because the video was not meant to be a marketing tool.

The video was an effort to produce an instructional that I could then refer potential fishing clients to in order to try to get them to understand what the game here would entail. The overlying message was intended to be that regardless of what line you use you must think about how to assist in getting the fly down. We cannot rely simply and solely on adding more and more weight to a rigging in order to get things down. There comes a point where any enjoyment with regards to casting is removed due to what we might be trying to cast.

In closing I'd like to say that while the number of fish caught between my friend an I was rather close, the number of snags and broken leaders as well as a broken sink tip due to a snag were solidly in his corner. I lost zero flies and was able to detect contact with the bottom at times but a quick twitch or short strip brought my rig free and raised it up enough to avoid problems. I'll be fishing this same way tomorrow :)

Ard
 

DC

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Interesting post, I tend to use 5ft or 10ft poly leaders in various densities and never really considered tapered leaders. In low summer conditions I use 5ft intermediate poly , and yes all it does is stop the fly skating. Think this time to have a look at tapered leaders. Can anyone recommend a good Fluro tapered leader . (most of the manufactures like RIO have tapered leaders described as copolymer , is the fluro under a different guise?)
 

Rennie

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Nylon monofilament, Copolymer and Flurocarbon are all different,act differently and have differing properties,
From memory the Glasgow Angling Center catalogue can offer a variety of Fluoro leaders, two in particular from Seaguar and Climax are worth looking at.There’s also Mono and Copolymer tapered leaders too, as the catalogue is usually free with T+S, worth a look. Pedro.
 

Tangled

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Nylon monofilament, Copolymer and Flurocarbon are all different,act differently and have differing properties,
From memory the Glasgow Angling Center catalogue can offer a variety of Fluoro leaders, two in particular from Seaguar and Climax are worth looking at.There’s also Mono and Copolymer tapered leaders too, as the catalogue is usually free with T+S, worth a look. Pedro.

Oh 'eck, I'm about to open a can of worms...

Copolymer *is* Nylon; they're the same thing - coplymer is just a pointless marketing term.
Fluorocarbon is a different chemical but it's only real practical difference is that it sinks about 3 times faster than the same diameter nylon. That sounds useful but if you use a sinking leader and a weighted fly, both will sink an awful lot faster that the mono - and yes, all three, nylon, copolymer (sic) and fluorocarbon are monos.
 

DC

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thanks for the update , ordered both Copolymer and Fluro tapered leaders to allow me to do a wee bit of experimenting :)
 

lefthandup

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I spotted that :)

There are some conditions that I find almost unfishable by fly although they are few even here in Alaska they exist. In all other circumstances I use what I'd call a Mini Head. I fished this year with a fellow who turns to a Skagit head and 10 foot sink tip along with a very heavy fly to attain depths. Somehow I still managed to either remain even or to pull ahead on the number of salmon caught if any one were counting ;)

If you have any curiosity with regard to what Left Hand Up or I am talking about just type 'Streamer Fishing Techniques by Ard' into a search on the www and you should find a you tube video that may or may not be of interest. I did not spend a great deal of time in describing the leader rigging because the video was not meant to be a marketing tool.

The video was an effort to produce an instructional that I could then refer potential fishing clients to in order to try to get them to understand what the game here would entail. The overlying message was intended to be that regardless of what line you use you must think about how to assist in getting the fly down. We cannot rely simply and solely on adding more and more weight to a rigging in order to get things down. There comes a point where any enjoyment with regards to casting is removed due to what we might be trying to cast.

In closing I'd like to say that while the number of fish caught between my friend an I was rather close, the number of snags and broken leaders as well as a broken sink tip due to a snag were solidly in his corner. I lost zero flies and was able to detect contact with the bottom at times but a quick twitch or short strip brought my rig free and raised it up enough to avoid problems. I'll be fishing this same way tomorrow :)

Ard
@Hardyreels ....would 4 or 5 ft of mono 30lbs be a good shout from flyline to sink tip instead of normal heavy leader material ?

I'm going to give your theory a bash this weekend.
 
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Would adding shot be a viable option to keep it down or does that compromise the presentation of the fly too much?
 
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