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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    Employment figures show folk of working age that are in work, and those that aren't. It's a blunt measure. Within that 100,000, there'll be parents taking career breaks to raise children, and carers forced to take career breaks, and those that are too well to claim disability benefits, but not well enough to hold down a job. It's an astonishingly low number really - well done Scotland - but I'd say you need immigration...
    And its 4.7% for the entire UK.

    Immigration yes BUT only those that have a job to come to, happy to pay the NHS levy and cant claim benefits for 5 years. Oh, I think that's what the conservatives are proposing😎

  2. #452

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenet View Post
    And its 4.7% for the entire UK.

    Immigration yes BUT only those that have a job to come to, happy to pay the NHS levy and cant claim benefits for 5 years. Oh, I think that's what the conservatives are proposing😎
    I don't disagree with immigration controls at all. I'm all for them, and I'd vote for all of the above if proposed by Labour - though I think 5 years is harsh, I'd maybe go 3, it's not like you plan illnesses/unscrupulous landlords/flaky employers, though you can to a degree build a nest egg to mitigate against them if you're emigrating.

    I just can't vote for it as part of the package of everything else the Conservative Party stands for, especially as immigration isn't the biggest issue to me. I don't really believe it's a problem at all - people have been made to believe it is one, so we blame each other for the state of services when we should be looking to the state. Immigrants are an easy target.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    All of that stuff you've written applies to the Labour Party, not Corbyn personally. What Corbyn personally thinks really doesn't matter. Our political parties form part of our democracy. The Labour Party manifesto - and The Conservative Party manifesto, and the Green Party manifesto - is a representation of the whole party's views, voted for at conference. It's not the Corbyn view, or the Johnson view, or the Bennett view. So all of Johnson's huffing and puffing last night, the grandstanding "Oh ho ho HE won't tell us what HE thinks" is just rhetoric designed to further his agenda.

    If it mattered what the leader of a party thought, we:
    Wouldn't have had a referendum
    Would have left under May
    Would have left under Johnson

    So spare the faux innocent 'I must be misunderstanding you because surely you're not that STUPID Saffy' nonsense.

    It doesn't matter what Corbyn personally thinks. It's just a - highly effective - deflection.
    With respect I think you've rather missed the point and I could say: "please spare us the "deflection" or re-writing my words card"

    I'm not interested in any distraction from the point to talk about personalities, wonky specs, nor Bozza's grandstanding.

    The original question posed, and my follow-up post, were not about whatever JC thinks: Please go back and have a re-read.

    The question was what is Labour's Brexit Policy? (Definitely not what JC, or anyone for that matter, thinks of the whole sorry affair)

    JC was there in that debate to reach out to potential Labour voters not as JC personally but as the Leader of the Labour party. He was there because he represents Labour and was there to explain Labour policies to the electorate.

    He was asked what Labours Brexit policy was.

    And to me (based on limited data, admittedly) he appeared to have seriously bodyswerved it...

    Or highlighted that it's a dog's breakfast...

    No matter what the spin...
    Last edited by seeking; 20-11-2019 at 06:43 PM.
    "...hooking mortality is higher than you'd expect: further evidence that as a numbers game, catch-and-release fishing isn't always as straightforward as it seems"
    John Gierach


    Fed up of debating C&R - see Hidden Content

    Unless otherwise stated, data used in any graph/figure/table are Crown copyright, used with the permission of MSS and/or EA and/or ICES. MSS / EA / ICES are not responsible for interpretation of these data by third parties

  4. #454
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    They are all remain parties, all this land of hope and glory, lets get brexit done is pure bs hoping to dupe leavers into voting tory, when in fact all that's promised is Mays deal with ketchup on, actually worse than staying in, IMO. The democratic decision of 17.4 to leave the federal state of europe has been pssd all over by the westminster bubble, whether the line dancers fall for it and go back to dosey do and firing a few blanks remains to be seen.

  5. #455

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    Why do we vote for parties, not issues?

    I mean - I know why. It would depend on everyone being informed on everything, so we'd have all sorts of crazy decisions implemented. But.

    I'd really welcome a ballot paper that let me choose on individual issues, then I'd happily let anyone implement the majority view.

    Immigration - controlled.
    NHS - free at point of access and not for sale.
    Nuclear deterrent - all the nopes
    Foreign policy - we're not the world police
    Public services - nationalised
    Brexit - second referendum

    Really bored of this Team Red/Blue partisan polarised horrorshow.

  6. #456

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    Quote Originally Posted by seeking View Post
    With respect I think you've rather missed the point and I could say, please spare us the "deflection" card

    I'm not interested in any distraction from the point to talk about personalities, wonky specs, nor Bozza's grandstanding.

    The original question posed, and my follow-up post, were not about whatever JC thinks: Please go back and have a re-read.

    The question was what is Labour's Brexit Policy? (Definitely not what JC, or anyone for that matter, thinks of the whole sorry affair)

    JC was there in that debate to reach out to potential Labour voters not as JC personally but as the Leader of the Labour party. He was there because he represents Labour and was there to explain Labour policies to the electorate.

    He was asked what Labours Brexit policy was.

    And to me (based on limited data, admittedly) he appeared to have seriously bodyswerved it...

    Or highlighted that it's a dog's breakfast...

    No matter what the spin...
    I was only responding to whoever was upset upthread that Corbyn wouldn't answer the question about whether he personally would campaign for leave or remain. The bit of my post you highlighted was, who cares what he thinks? That's what he bodyswerved. The Labour Party policy on Brexit couldn't be clearer, and if you don't understand it, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    You can interpret it as 'Remain or Remain', or say that they won't be able to get a better/different deal, and that's fine - no one is making anyone agree with it, or believe in it - but saying it isn't clear is disingenuous. It's really very clear.
    Last edited by Safranfoer; 20-11-2019 at 06:46 PM.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    I was only responding to whoever was upset upthread that Corbyn wouldn't answer the question about whether he personally would campaign for leave or remain. The bit of my post you highlighted was, who cares what he thinks? That's what he bodyswerved. The Labour Party policy on Brexit couldn't be clearer, and if you don't understand it, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    You can interpret it as 'Remain or Remain', or say that they won't be able to get a better/different deal, and that's fine - no one is making anyone agree with it, or believe in it - but saying it isn't clear is disingenuous. It's really very clear.
    OK, then clearly I had made a mistake, for which I apologise

    Understood. It is clear:

    it is a dog's breakfast...

    And fence-sitting will loose them lots (IMHO and could be wrong, as always)


    PS - re your "Issues not Colours" wish-list, 5 out of 6 ain't bad!!!!
    Last edited by seeking; 20-11-2019 at 06:58 PM.
    "...hooking mortality is higher than you'd expect: further evidence that as a numbers game, catch-and-release fishing isn't always as straightforward as it seems"
    John Gierach


    Fed up of debating C&R - see Hidden Content

    Unless otherwise stated, data used in any graph/figure/table are Crown copyright, used with the permission of MSS and/or EA and/or ICES. MSS / EA / ICES are not responsible for interpretation of these data by third parties

  8. #458

    Question

    Interested in this “give people who voted leave a crack at the politians who didn’t implement Brexit” rhetoric. That of course works both ways and the remainers who want a crack at the idiots that lied throughout the referendum will also have their say. Pretty much 50-50 at the time of referendum, 3 years of silver haired deaths, x million who were 15-17 in 2016 and now able to vote...

    All points to an interesting result
    Last edited by T7; 20-11-2019 at 07:10 PM.

  9. #459

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    Quote Originally Posted by T7 View Post
    Interested this “give people who voted leave a crack at the politians who didn’t implement Brexit” rhetoric. That of course works both ways and the remainders who want a crack at the idiots that lied throughout a referendum will also have their say. Pretty much 50-50 at the time of referendum, 3 years of silver haired deaths, x million who were 15-17 in 2016 and now able to vote.

    All points to an interesting result
    Saw this elsewhere just the other day.

    1ed26400-e749-42be-9d42-b893ac80f7a8-jpeg
    Remember Thomas Muir of Huntershill

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by T7 View Post
    Interested in this “give people who voted leave a crack at the politians who didn’t implement Brexit” rhetoric. That of course works both ways and the remainers who want a crack at the idiots that lied throughout the referendum will also have their say. Pretty much 50-50 at the time of referendum, 3 years of silver haired deaths, x million who were 15-17 in 2016 and now able to vote...

    All points to an interesting result
    Some of the 50+ who voted remain will also be a little wiser although they won't have the first hand knowledge of a country out of the shackles of the EU.

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