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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by T7 View Post
    Immigrants contribute more to the public coffers than non immigrants per person so you could argue they have more right than ‘natives’. Even though they talk/look funny 🙄
    That's the worst bit about the whole argument. When people say that immigration causes the strain on our public services. Immigrants pay more in than we do! So there should be MORE money going into our public services. The only logical impact of immigration on the NHS and schools should be more money to go in!

    But there isn't more money! There's apparently LESS money!

    And this just gets lapped up by people sick and fed up of the lack of investment in services. Because they want someone to blame, and the people in charge of dividing up the money give them someone to blame, and it's the person living in their community, sending their kids to the same school, working in the same area, paying the same taxes. THEY are to blame. Not government.

    It's vile.
    Last edited by Safranfoer; 15-11-2019 at 02:06 PM.

  2. #302

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    Fast broadband is very good unless you live at the outer most reaches of a supply.
    Example. BT normal broadband speed to me 8mg when advertised up to 20mg. For an extra tenner go from 8mg to 14mg but not the 30mg advertised.
    The difference between 8 and 14 is negligible and certainly not worth a tenner.
    I'm lucky my girlfriend has a maximum speed of 3mg if she's lucky and sometimes none at all and she lives in a built up urban area. BT engineer says it's an underground fault. It's been like this for at least 5 years.
    My friend lives on Skye and has just got super fast broadband and he's about as remote as you can get.

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

  3. #303
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Mid Wales
    Posts
    779

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    Obviously. But will all of that cost more than the annual running of the NHS?

    I suppose it 'could'.

    But I doubt it very much.
    Im sure that Labour have it all costed out since thinking it up yesterday.

  4. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassfly View Post
    Fast broadband is very good unless you live at the outer most reaches of a supply.
    Example. BT normal broadband speed to me 8mg when advertised up to 20mg. For an extra tenner go from 8mg to 14mg but not the 30mg advertised.
    The difference between 8 and 14 is negligible and certainly not worth a tenner.
    I'm lucky my girlfriend has a maximum speed of 3mg if she's lucky and sometimes none at all and she lives in a built up urban area. BT engineer says it's an underground fault. It's been like this for at least 5 years.
    My friend lives on Skye and has just got super fast broadband and he's about as remote as you can get.

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk
    We have only very recently got decent broadband into our small town on the edge of a major city. Yes, it's semi-rural, but we're not talking the wilds of the Peaks here. If I set off to walk to the edge of Sheffield now, I'd be there in 5 minutes.

    The government is already paying companies like Virgin to bring cable to towns like mine. It's just an extension of that. And having read the plans in full, it seems fair enough.

    "A Labour government would compensate shareholders by issuing government bonds. The shadow chancellor said Labour had taken legal advice, including ensuring pension funds with investments in BT are not left out of pocket.

    "As with other planned Labour nationalisations, he said MPs would set the value of the company at the time of it being taken into public ownership.

    "Mr McDonnell told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that Labour would add an extra £15bn to the government's existing £5bn broadband strategy, with the money to come from the party's proposed Green Transformation Fund.

    "Having already announced plans to nationalise water, rail and now broadband, Mr McDonnell said this latest plan was "the limit of our ambitions".

    "A new entity, British Broadband, would run the network, with maintenance - estimated to cost £230m a year - to be covered by the new tax on companies such as Apple and Google.

    "We think they should pay their way and other countries are following suit," said Mr McDonnell.

    "Labour has not yet completed the final details of how the internet giant tax would work, saying it would be based "percentage wise'' on global profits and UK sales, raising potentially as much as £6bn.

    Mr McDonnell said that if other broadband providers did not want to give access to British Broadband, then they would also be taken into public ownership."


    IN the UK, 8% of homes and businesses have access to full fibre broadband. This is woeful. 89% in Portugal, 71% in Spain. 8% here. If we are going to take cars off the road and invigorate rural economies, we need to think big. It's not about people being able to piddle about on a salmon forum a bit faster.

    However, Australia is trying to do this and has totally failed.

    It's a policy with vision though. Where are the Conservative Party's big transformational policies? All i can see is more of the same. Undoing the damage they've done over the last 10 years, taking us back to where we were 10 years ago.

    That's not progress.

  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    That's the worst bit about the whole argument. When people say that immigration causes the strain on our public services. Immigrants pay more in than we do! So there should be MORE money going into our public services. The only logical impact of immigration on the NHS and schools should be more money to go in!

    But there isn't more money! There's apparently LESS money!

    And this just gets lapped up by people sick and fed up of the lack of investment in services. Because they want someone to blame, and the people in charge of dividing up the money give them someone to blame, and it's the person living in their community, sending their kids to the same school, working in the same area, paying the same taxes. THEY are to blame. Not government.

    It's vile.
    I have no problem with a controlled immigration system and the immigrants paying into the system that makes sense. The problem with uncontrolled immigration is showing in the rapid growth of our population and the infrastructure unable to cope.
    We have a shortage of skilled labour due to lack of training by employers and a welfare system that makes it more advantageous for low paid unskilled people not to work.
    Allowing uncontrolled immigration has solved the problem for the employer by allowing in people who are prepared to work for a lower wage but made a massive problem for the resident work force.
    Until this imbalance between a minimum wage and a living wage is solved then we will need a large immigrant workforce.

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    "A Labour government would compensate shareholders by issuing government bonds. The shadow chancellor said Labour had taken legal advice, including ensuring pension funds with investments in BT are not left out of pocket.

    "As with other planned Labour nationalisations, he said MPs would set the value of the company at the time of it being taken into public ownership.

    "Mr McDonnell told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that Labour would add an extra £15bn to the government's existing £5bn broadband strategy, with the money to come from the party's proposed Green Transformation Fund.

    "Having already announced plans to nationalise water, rail and now broadband, Mr McDonnell said this latest plan was "the limit of our ambitions".

    "A new entity, British Broadband, would run the network, with maintenance - estimated to cost £230m a year - to be covered by the new tax on companies such as Apple and Google.

    "We think they should pay their way and other countries are following suit," said Mr McDonnell.

    "Labour has not yet completed the final details of how the internet giant tax would work, saying it would be based "percentage wise'' on global profits and UK sales, raising potentially as much as £6bn.

    Mr McDonnell said that if other broadband providers did not want to give access to British Broadband, then they would also be taken into public ownership."

    Do you actually believe this?
    If Labour ever got near power I would sell any shares I hold in any company before they get close to valuing it, I would not be alone. Do you think a Government bond would hold its value, you probably do if you believe the rest of this fairy story.
    Can you see Apple and Google happily paying Tax, I think not they are International companies and the profits will move to elsewhere.

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Cirencester
    Posts
    3,118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safranfoer View Post
    That's the worst bit about the whole argument. When people say that immigration causes the strain on our public services. Immigrants pay more in than we do! So there should be MORE money going into our public services. The only logical impact of immigration on the NHS and schools should be more money to go in!

    But there isn't more money! There's apparently LESS money!

    And this just gets lapped up by people sick and fed up of the lack of investment in services. Because they want someone to blame, and the people in charge of dividing up the money give them someone to blame, and it's the person living in their community, sending their kids to the same school, working in the same area, paying the same taxes. THEY are to blame. Not government.

    It's vile.
    I hear what you're saying (and it's not possible to disagree), but those are only the ones we KNOW about surely?

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassfly View Post
    I have no problem with a controlled immigration system and the immigrants paying into the system that makes sense. The problem with uncontrolled immigration is showing in the rapid growth of our population and the infrastructure unable to cope.
    We have a shortage of skilled labour due to lack of training by employers and a welfare system that makes it more advantageous for low paid unskilled people not to work.
    Allowing uncontrolled immigration has solved the problem for the employer by allowing in people who are prepared to work for a lower wage but made a massive problem for the resident work force.
    Until this imbalance between a minimum wage and a living wage is solved then we will need a large immigrant workforce.

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk
    Uncontrolled immigration is a myth though. We have controlled immigration. EU citizens have the right to come here for 3 months, and then they have the right to stay if they have a job.

    Everything else you mention isn't a problem with immigration. It's a problem with the UK welfare system - which we are in control of, not the EU. Specifically, businesses being subsidised by the state via the welfare system, to keep wage bills low in a race to the bottom.

    It's a problem with a system that values money over people.

    Absolutely nothing to do with immigration, which we need. The country would fall over without it right now.

    And as you point out, the minimum and living wage needs sorting. Check out how the press are covering the parties' plans...

    img_0537-jpg

    Note that the Conservatives are actually offering MORE...

  9. #309
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Mid Wales
    Posts
    779

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    Interesting document here, although it wasn't what I was originally talking about

    How immigrants affect public finances - Full Fact

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by williegunn2 View Post
    Do you actually believe this?
    If Labour ever got near power I would sell any shares I hold in any company before they get close to valuing it, I would not be alone. Do you think a Government bond would hold its value, you probably do if you believe the rest of this fairy story.
    Can you see Apple and Google happily paying Tax, I think not they are International companies and the profits will move to elsewhere.
    Do I believe it? Not really, no.

    Do I believe we should be considering a government that is thinking much bigger than the conservatives? Yes.

    But then I'm not naturally a conservative person, despite my huge and well-documented 'henny penny the sky is coming down' fears over Brexit. Conservatism is all about prudence and caution and I'm a bull in a china shop in most areas of my life.

    For a political party to be even talking in these terms, in these times... We can't have more of the same. It's just not working. If you look at the gap between the rich and the poor, the gap between the north and the south, the gap between what we need and what we have... Those problems aren't going to be solved by trying to do the same things, the same way. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

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