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Thread: Brexit

  1. #7761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefly View Post
    Well, my perspective is one of the eternal fence-sitter, this objective stance allows me to carefully observe what kind of politics are applied to govern, be it in a federation, a union or a nation and to what extent politicians or fractions would go to serve their own agenda's. I'm glad you see the importance of the Farage show to your government and politicians to do exactly that, send a puppet serving their agenda. Let him light the fire and we'll all dance happily around the flames.
    And then you surprise me by saying the EU did wrong by adopting (as in a reaction to something) a politic to serve their own agenda. In other words, one shouldn't do what the other one does. Junker should be put to shame for defending his cause.

    Brexit is about everything, it's about disgust, distrust, selfishness and hate, about nationalism, patriotism and protectionism, it is about divisiveness and isolation, about so-called self-determination and sovereignty, all the ideologies you mentioned thrive on these notions and were rightly exposed for being determining in the Brexit vote. Not all voted leave on those terms, but they were a decisive tipping point, as you said yourself. Now we know that, let's move on.
    Firefly

    I think you have made the mistake of constructing a world where your beliefs are not only correct, but the only virtuous way forward, this makes any compromise difficult,

    You list a series of highly unattractive characteristics and then add on a series of other terms which you know I believe in. By doing so, you try to make it looked like both terms are inextricably linked, when in fact they are not, certainly not in my mind. Self-determination, sovereignty and patriotism are not always tied to disgust, distrust, selfishness and hate, about nationalism, patriotism and protectionism, not to mention divisiveness and isolation. If you truly believe that they are, I suggest you have constructed a logic which flies in the face of what we know and fails to acknowledge the complexity of life. Were Ghandi and Nehru being selfish when they demanded self-determination and Independence from the British Empire? Were the Czechs and Slovaks driven by hate and distrust when they decided to split the Czech Republic into the constituent parts? Are people in Hong Kong wrong to distrust the Chinese government? So we don't 'know that' and I cannot agree with you on this matter.

    If you think Farage is a tool of the UK political establishment you are simply wrong and I don't think you understand either the UK, or UK politics. The fact you think Brexit is about protectionism simply highlights this, we're the least protectionist country I can think of and free trade has always been a characteristic of the UK, not always to universal benefit I must note. There again, why try to understand something if you have already decided that yours is the only moral course of action and the other is simply wrong? Farage is feared and hated by both main parties, he has been a constant thorn in their sides for over 10 years and has made negotiations more difficult by shaping EU perceptions (such as yours) of Brexit and the UK.

    The problem with believing that only your beliefs are moral is that it implies that everything else is somehow immoral. While this suits leadership, it does not always suit the needs of those they represent. Portraying Brexit as xenophobic, racist, isolationist and protectionist* may make the EU leadership feel good about themselves and sound good to their support base, but it also makes it very hard to reach a compromise. Saving face and protecting individual positions become far more important than seeking the best outcome for the people you represent. The fact the withdrawal agreement hinged on the 'integrity of the single market' illustrates this. The EU and it's second biggest economy are arguing the toss over a tiny tiny fraction of potential trade, over a very small border; meanwhile people smugglers are shipping hundreds, if not thousands of unfortunate souls into, out of and accross the Single Market and that doesn't seem to be stopping any time soon. A price had to be paid and face to be saved.

    The best thing for the people of Europe, as opposed to the EU leadership would have been to reach a quick free trade agreement. This would have preserved the effective size of the single market, promoted economic activity, preserved jobs, allowed the EU to focus on other, serious matters (the Euro) and preserved the privileged position of EU businesses in one of their largest markets. Of course that could not be allowed to happen because jobs, economic activity and the size of the single market take second place to the integrity of the 'project' and the ideology.

    Without rehashing all that was written about the refurendum I travelled the same journey as MOWs years earlier and I just don't buy into the project.

    Rgds

  2. #7762

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchilton View Post
    Because the majority of British people don't like or trust the EU. So they voted for someone that they agreed with.
    No.
    You have your words in the wrong order , and have also made an omission which further muddies the water.
    Remember Thomas Muir of Huntershill

  3. #7763
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    693

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchilton View Post
    So tell me what was the result of the election that Junker won, I can't remember ever voting for him, now thats special. If you do I will tell you the result of the votes that brought Farage and his Brexit party into the EU parliament representing some of the 'special' UK electorate.
    If you want to see how 'special' we are, look in your history books.
    You see where it gets at when the arguments fail, the election of Junker is a way of appointing a (ceremonial) head of the union you agreed with whilst playing along. I've looked in many history books, where do we begin? India? Palestine? Zimbabwe? Are you talking about the Empire or just your involvement in the last wars? We all made our sacrifices in those, each in his own way. Your history books may sound a little different from ours, but we all remember the pain we endured, it was the same as yours.
    firefly

  4. #7764
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    3,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrypokemon View Post
    Well I got a really really big blanket and I wafted and wafted and wafted and eventually the EU smoke cleared. I did actually find some opportunities.



    NHS bill for US drugs 'could soar under post-Brexit trade deal' | inews



    Never mind though, I can get a hundred and fifty quid off a new fly reel
    "It could rain after dear"

    "Best not go out then"

  5. #7765

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrypokemon View Post
    Well I got a really really big blanket and I wafted and wafted and wafted and eventually the EU smoke cleared. I did actually find some opportunities.



    NHS bill for US drugs 'could soar under post-Brexit trade deal' | inews



    Never mind though, I can get a hundred and fifty quid off a new fly reel
    The operative word is "COULD"

  6. #7766
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    693

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grassy_Knollington View Post
    Firefly

    I think you have made the mistake of constructing a world where your beliefs are not only correct, but the only virtuous way forward, this makes any compromise difficult,

    You list a series of highly unattractive characteristics and then add on a series of other terms which you know I believe in. By doing so, you try to make it looked like both terms are inextricably linked, when in fact they are not, certainly not in my mind. Self-determination, sovereignty and patriotism are not always tied to disgust, distrust, selfishness and hate, about nationalism, patriotism and protectionism, not to mention divisiveness and isolation. If you truly believe that they are, I suggest you have constructed a logic which flies in the face of what we know and fails to acknowledge the complexity of life. Were Ghandi and Nehru being selfish when they demanded self-determination and Independence from the British Empire? Were the Czechs and Slovaks driven by hate and distrust when they decided to split the Czech Republic into the constituent parts? Are people in Hong Kong wrong to distrust the Chinese government? So we don't 'know that' and I cannot agree with you on this matter.

    If you think Farage is a tool of the UK political establishment you are simply wrong and I don't think you understand either the UK, or UK politics. The fact you think Brexit is about protectionism simply highlights this, we're the least protectionist country I can think of and free trade has always been a characteristic of the UK, not always to universal benefit I must note. There again, why try to understand something if you have already decided that yours is the only moral course of action and the other is simply wrong? Farage is feared and hated by both main parties, he has been a constant thorn in their sides for over 10 years and has made negotiations more difficult by shaping EU perceptions (such as yours) of Brexit and the UK.

    The problem with believing that only your beliefs are moral is that it implies that everything else is somehow immoral. While this suits leadership, it does not always suit the needs of those they represent. Portraying Brexit as xenophobic, racist, isolationist and protectionist* may make the EU leadership feel good about themselves and sound good to their support base, but it also makes it very hard to reach a compromise. Saving face and protecting individual positions become far more important than seeking the best outcome for the people you represent. The fact the withdrawal agreement hinged on the 'integrity of the single market' illustrates this. The EU and it's second biggest economy are arguing the toss over a tiny tiny fraction of potential trade, over a very small border; meanwhile people smugglers are shipping hundreds, if not thousands of unfortunate souls into, out of and accross the Single Market and that doesn't seem to be stopping any time soon. A price had to be paid and face to be saved.

    The best thing for the people of Europe, as opposed to the EU leadership would have been to reach a quick free trade agreement. This would have preserved the effective size of the single market, promoted economic activity, preserved jobs, allowed the EU to focus on other, serious matters (the Euro) and preserved the privileged position of EU businesses in one of their largest markets. Of course that could not be allowed to happen because jobs, economic activity and the size of the single market take second place to the integrity of the 'project' and the ideology.

    Without rehashing all that was written about the refurendum I travelled the same journey as MOWs years earlier and I just don't buy into the project.

    Rgds
    I think you misread my post from the moment you "tied" those notions together and glued them onto an ideology I dislike, these terms are not tied, they are DIFFERENT notions of awareness or opinion that can trigger a decision to be made in favour of those notions. You can vote to leave out of disgust or out of patriotism, both different notions that don't need to be unconditionally linked or tied to influence a decision. The reason may be a simple one or a coagulation of personal beliefs and convictions, it doesn't matter, they all lead to the same result. It should be clear for once and for all that leave voters had a lot more reasons to choose from than remainers. Given the current practise of vote-scoring I still believe a lot of people were tricked into voting leave for the wrong reasons, something you see now in the disagreement between them on the terms, on the actual outcome of their vote. It was well played and your government took full advantage of the momentum. Vox populi did the rest.
    firefly

  7. #7767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassfly View Post
    The operative word is "COULD"

    I have an avid fascination for motorways. Love the things. Drive up them. Drive down them. Lovely places. I like them so much that they afternoon I stopped my truck on the hard shoulder of the M56 and my passengers asked what the hell I thought I was doing? I explained that as I like motorways so much I was going to step across 2 busy lanes of traffic and go and lie face up in the overtaking lane. They were quite concerned and suggested that I COULD get myself killed. What did they know? I went and did it anyway. I am currently typing my reply while face up on a mortuary slab in Chester. I also have a sudden very strong urge to cross my hands over my chest. All a bit corpse like really.
    It's all very well using WW2 analogies when referring to Brexit - 'spirit of the blitz' and all that. Imagine the curious atmosphere though if you were sitting in your air raid shelter looking around and realising that half of the people around you had voted to get bombed

  8. #7768

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrypokemon View Post
    I have an avid fascination for motorways. Love the things. Drive up them. Drive down them. Lovely places. I like them so much that they afternoon I stopped my truck on the hard shoulder of the M56 and my passengers asked what the hell I thought I was doing? I explained that as I like motorways so much I was going to step across 2 busy lanes of traffic and go and lie face up in the overtaking lane. They were quite concerned and suggested that I COULD get myself killed. What did they know? I went and did it anyway. I am currently typing my reply while face up on a mortuary slab in Chester. I also have a sudden very strong urge to cross my hands over my chest. All a bit corpse like really.
    It says REPLY WITH QUOTE.
    Struggling with this one PP.

  9. #7769

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchilton View Post
    Because the majority of British people don't like or trust the EU. So they voted for someone that they agreed with.


    Can you please direct me to your source of reference to substantiate your rather curious suggestion? If you are basing your statement on a referendum held 3 years ago then your comment is 3 years out of date. For that matter it would not have even been accurate then since the leave vote did not account for anywhere near a total majority of the entire population of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It gained a wafer thin majority of the people who actually voted. Poll after poll after poll suggests that if a referendum were held now then leave would lose. I don't feel that remain would win by 51%+ of the entire population though so will not dare to be as plainly silly in my own reply as you were in yours.
    It's all very well using WW2 analogies when referring to Brexit - 'spirit of the blitz' and all that. Imagine the curious atmosphere though if you were sitting in your air raid shelter looking around and realising that half of the people around you had voted to get bombed

  10. #7770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bassfly View Post
    It says REPLY WITH QUOTE.
    Struggling with this one PP.

    Let me help you. I lay on the outside lane of the M56 when my passengers said that I COULD get myself killed. I of course knew better than they did so I went and did it anyway and now here I lie cold and deader than Elvis Presley.


    Hope it is clearer for you now
    It's all very well using WW2 analogies when referring to Brexit - 'spirit of the blitz' and all that. Imagine the curious atmosphere though if you were sitting in your air raid shelter looking around and realising that half of the people around you had voted to get bombed

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