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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Co Fermanagh
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    270

    Default Med length Spey line

    Hi all,

    Advise required please, I am trying to move up to a full spey line from my outbound scandi type short heads.
    I fish with a Hardy Zenith Sintrex and a Sage Zaxis both 9/10 (580gr) 14 ft 6" and 14ft 3" at the moment I am having to strip approx 14 - 20 yards between casts. What i would like is a Med Spey line that i can lift off and single or spiral cast out again after having only retrieved 2 yards of line I would attach 12 ft of fluorocarbon tapered leader to the tip of the line and fish a fly of approx 10 size

    If the optimum grain weight for my rods are 580 when i look at the specs for the Med Spey lines currently on sale, I see that the grain weight for a 9/10 can be up to 750 grains this very confusing can any member clarify or give advice on what line specs i should try.

    Help Please
    Roger
    The "forlorn hope".

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Deveronside
    Posts
    788

    Default

    Hi,

    For your Zenith, Gaelforce 54' 10/11, i use this and it works a treat, no experience of your other setup sorry, but some of the other folk will help you out.

  3. #3

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    The amount you'll need to retrieve before making another cast with any line will depend how much line you have out. Even with a mid length of full length spey line, if you've cast the whole head, you need to retrieve to the optimum point (normally with the head just in or just out of the rod tip).

    I have had some success with Barrio lines although not their spey lines which I have not tried. If you email Mike Barrio through the website he can advise on the best line and line weight for your rod.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    North Yorks
    Posts
    2,789

    Default

    It's essential to bear in mind the a medium or full Spey line is much heavier in grams weight than a short Scandi head, but will have the same rating. This is because your rod's rating and optimum line weight is related to the mass of line in the upper part of the D loop. It's the acceleration of that element that loads the rod. With a Scandi a very large proportion of the overall weight is in the upper loading element. With a full Spey the proportion is significantly lower. Thus a 37g Scandi and a 48g full Spey may apply exactly the same loading force.

    I hope that explains the difference. If you draw a little diagram of the D loop you will see how much of the full Spey is 'round the corner' and hence doesn't load the rod. I would draw the picture myself but for the fact I am currently on a small tablet.
    Last edited by MCXFisher; 14-06-2017 at 01:15 PM.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beaver123 View Post
    Hi all,

    Advise required please, I am trying to move up to a full spey line from my outbound scandi type short heads.
    I fish with a Hardy Zenith Sintrex and a Sage Zaxis both 9/10 (580gr) 14 ft 6" and 14ft 3" at the moment I am having to strip approx 14 - 20 yards between casts. What i would like is a Med Spey line that i can lift off and single or spiral cast out again after having only retrieved 2 yards of line I would attach 12 ft of fluorocarbon tapered leader to the tip of the line and fish a fly of approx 10 size

    If the optimum grain weight for my rods are 580 when i look at the specs for the Med Spey lines currently on sale, I see that the grain weight for a 9/10 can be up to 750 grains this very confusing can any member clarify or give advice on what line specs i should try.

    Help Please
    Roger
    Realistically, the bit I've highlighted is a tough ask. Look at the maths for a moment - you want to reduce the amount of line you're stripping and shooting from 14 yards (to take your lower figure) to just 2 yards, and presumably still cast the same distance overall. So if you're using 12 yards less running line, you will obviously have to add 12 yards to the length of the head. I think your outbound scandi will have a head of about 13 yards, so adding those together you'd be looking at an effective head length of 75'. That's quite a long head to use on rods of less than 15'.

    If you're a reasonable caster, a head of about 65' should be quite manageable on your rods and represents a sensible compromise. That would add another 8-9 yards to the head length, and obviously reduce the amount of running line needed accordingly. There are a number of choices of line available to you; I have mainly used Carron lines for quite a number of years, in both 65' and 75' head lengths, and they're still amongst the best available, IMO.

    On the question of the increased head weight, if you're using a spey cast, the weight of the line needs to increase alongside the length if you are to generate the same load on the rod. Without going into too much detail, this is basically because the rod loading is generated from the upper leg of the D loop. With a longer head length, more of the line is 'round the corner' in the lower leg of the loop and doesn't contribute to the loading, so the overall head weight needs to increase to compensate. NB, this only applies with a spey cast; with an overhead cast the head weight can remain the same regardless of length.

    As a final thought, with 13 yards of head + 14 yards of running line + 4 yards of leader + nearly 5 yards of rod you are currently throwing 35+ yards from reel to fly - and if you're really shooting 20 yards of running line that makes a cast of over 40 yards. Even the lower figure of 35 yards is a good long cast with a rod of less than 15'; if you fish at this distance and more on a regular basis, I'd suggest that you should look at a slightly longer rod - and all the more so if you're moving to longer heads.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Co Fermanagh
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    270

    Default moving up to full spey line

    Thanks to all the members who offered advice, i have a clearer understanding of the mechanics now.

    thanks
    Roger








    Quote Originally Posted by charlieH View Post
    Realistically, the bit I've highlighted is a tough ask. Look at the maths for a moment - you want to reduce the amount of line you're stripping and shooting from 14 yards (to take your lower figure) to just 2 yards, and presumably still cast the same distance overall. So if you're using 12 yards less running line, you will obviously have to add 12 yards to the length of the head. I think your outbound scandi will have a head of about 13 yards, so adding those together you'd be looking at an effective head length of 75'. That's quite a long head to use on rods of less than 15'.

    If you're a reasonable caster, a head of about 65' should be quite manageable on your rods and represents a sensible compromise. That would add another 8-9 yards to the head length, and obviously reduce the amount of running line needed accordingly. There are a number of choices of line available to you; I have mainly used Carron lines for quite a number of years, in both 65' and 75' head lengths, and they're still amongst the best available, IMO.

    On the question of the increased head weight, if you're using a spey cast, the weight of the line needs to increase alongside the length if you are to generate the same load on the rod. Without going into too much detail, this is basically because the rod loading is generated from the upper leg of the D loop. With a longer head length, more of the line is 'round the corner' in the lower leg of the loop and doesn't contribute to the loading, so the overall head weight needs to increase to compensate. NB, this only applies with a spey cast; with an overhead cast the head weight can remain the same regardless of length.

    As a final thought, with 13 yards of head + 14 yards of running line + 4 yards of leader + nearly 5 yards of rod you are currently throwing 35+ yards from reel to fly - and if you're really shooting 20 yards of running line that makes a cast of over 40 yards. Even the lower figure of 35 yards is a good long cast with a rod of less than 15'; if you fish at this distance and more on a regular basis, I'd suggest that you should look at a slightly longer rod - and all the more so if you're moving to longer heads.
    The "forlorn hope".

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Foxford, Co.Mayo, Ireland
    Posts
    2,335

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    Quote Originally Posted by beaver123 View Post
    Thanks to all the members who offered advice, i have a clearer understanding of the mechanics now.

    thanks
    Roger
    Hi Roger,

    You could bear it in mind too that not everyone subscribes to the theory that only the top leg of the D loop is loading the rod on a Spey cast's forward cast - although many do.
    Last edited by minitube; 22-06-2017 at 08:15 AM.
    What is the appropriate behavior for a man or a woman in the midst of this world, where each person is clinging to his piece of debris? What's the proper salutation between people as they pass each other in this flood?
    Buddha

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Dublin
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    1,364

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    Quote Originally Posted by minitube View Post
    Hi Roger,

    You could bear it in mind too that not everyone subscribes to the theory that only the top leg of the D loop is loading the rod on a Spey cast's forward cast - although many do.
    Explain please?
    H

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Foxford, Co.Mayo, Ireland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus View Post
    Explain please?
    H
    Hi Donal,


    Think about this. How could a skipping anchor occur then, assuming that top leg loading only theory, was correct? Why would an anchor pull out on the forward cast?
    Last edited by minitube; 22-06-2017 at 09:40 AM.
    What is the appropriate behavior for a man or a woman in the midst of this world, where each person is clinging to his piece of debris? What's the proper salutation between people as they pass each other in this flood?
    Buddha

  10. #10
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    May 2008
    Location
    Dublin
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    Quote Originally Posted by minitube View Post
    Hi Donal,


    Think about this. How could a skipping anchor occur then, assuming that top leg loading only theory, was correct? Why would an anchor pull out on the forward cast?
    Robert,
    You are going to lose me very quickly as I'm not sure I can think that deeply about casting but for the sake of debate I'll have a go:
    I think I see where you are coming from that the anchor couldn't skip if only the top leg loaded the rod as if it were so no energy or force(?) would translate to the lower leg?
    I expect for a short moment, the dynamic D loop which gets its 'mass' from an energetic back-cast, contributes as a whole to loading the rod. The 'mass' must, for that short moment when loading is at its maximum, include all the D Loop from the rear point of the anchor around to the tip of the rod.
    In that sense more than the top-leg contributes to loading?
    A moment or moments later, when the D Loop begins to diffuse its energy however marginal, it contributes less and less to loading the rod; hence the right moment to knock out the forward cast?
    No?
    H

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