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Thread: Spring Fish

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by westie4566 View Post
    Ok-I'm not quite in your position Tam having seen fish on Spey, Don and North Esk and have successfully landed one and lost another.

    However, it doesn't get away from the fact that things are grim all over.
    The Dee always seems to get hauled up for scrutiny
    ...dunno why as from what I see they're the one Board in Scotland who are out busting their asses trying to actually turn the tide.0
    Well, I've fished Teith & Earn weekly, North Esk for 4 days, Tummel, Spey on Carron, Upper Arndilly and Tulchan and I've yet to see a splash. When you fish beats day after day with 3 or 4 good fishers either side of you and nobody gets a pull that tells you there's just nothing there and you need to pull a huge stroke of good luck to get into a fish these days.
    But, anyway, where did I anywhere in my post criticize the Dee board? Sure, I never was a fan of their "voluntary" 100% C & R code but you will never hear or see me anywhere knocking their activities. Why should I? I have the Forth board on my doorstep to have a go at if I want to. Full time job that would be.
    No, I'm surprised you hauled that one out of the hat for a wee bit of sniping practice.
    Respect My Authorita!!

  2. #32

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    Seems to me that run timing is more dependent on sex than anything else.
    I mentioned this on another thread a while ago with not much response.
    The best chance for a female salmon to pass on her genes comes from body mass. The more eggs she has, the better the chances. It's a numbers game after all. This has to be balanced against spending too much time at sea where mortality rate is an issue. So a female salmon spending an extra winter at sea to bulk up and increase egg carrying capacity makes perfect evolutionary sense. These females may also be fewer in number (high mortality rate at sea) and enter the river early also for this reason. Being fewer in number doesn't risk the species as we all know there only needs to be "enough" eggs in a system but the individual's best chance of those eggs being their own are to risk the high mortality at sea and return bigger and with many more eggs in her belly.
    Male fish are different. They don't need bulk to be able to spawn. They just need to be big enough. The high mortality rate at sea would be encouragement enough to start that return journey 6-9 months earlier than females of the same cohort. Smaller males (grilse and small salmon) would also be greater in number through spending less time at sea It's also an evolutionary advantage to have males and females from the same cohort returning in different spawning years so there is more mixing of genes (less chance of sister mating with brother). There are of course a few big males but these are exceptions - being a big male is not a big advantage at spawning time, especially when a 4" parr can nip in unseen and do the business.

    Now, this is just a theory of mine. Nothing more substantial than that so I may be wrong. But it it does explain many observations on here such as...

    Springers mostly don't mate with springers. Precocious parr are also explained by the "just need to be big enough" theory of males.
    Most springers are female.
    Most grilse are male.
    Male and female offspring would be expected to run at different times.
    Spawning timing is determined by the females which is why different tribs, burns and river systems can have spawning at different times.
    Run timing of fish born in "springer dominated burns or tribs like Ettrick" can't be predicted because male and female offspring from the same spawning pair tend to return at different times.
    Whiteadder - the scent of spring run females will attract the male run later in the year and spawning will take place at a time dictated by the early running females not the males (as is always the case!) and spawning could well be much earlier than other parts of the river where populations of later running females dominate and spawning occurs later.

    So, it's entirely plausible that there are distinct populations within river systems and between river systems if we accept that the males run timing is determined by different factors to the females and we should stop trying to define a population based on run timing.

    So the questions "do springers breed with springers" or "do springers breed springers" are the wrong questions to ask.

    Of course, straying and spawning of salmon from different cohorts happens so genetically distinct strains if salmon should never emerge but this does not mean that burns, tribs and river systems can't have distinct populations dominated by salmon with certain characteristics such as a female population dominated by early returning females rather than later returning females.

  3. #33
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    Walleye,
    many thanks for a really useful contribution to the debate: well thought, well argued and well written. The Forum at its best. 😇😇😇

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by keirstream View Post
    Well, I've fished Teith & Earn weekly, North Esk for 4 days, Tummel, Spey on Carron, Upper Arndilly and Tulchan and I've yet to see a splash. When you fish beats day after day with 3 or 4 good fishers either side of you and nobody gets a pull that tells you there's just nothing there and you need to pull a huge stroke of good luck to get into a fish these days.
    But, anyway, where did I anywhere in my post criticize the Dee board? Sure, I never was a fan of their "voluntary" 100% C & R code but you will never hear or see me anywhere knocking their activities. Why should I? I have the Forth board on my doorstep to have a go at if I want to. Full time job that would be.
    No, I'm surprised you hauled that one out of the hat for a wee bit of sniping practice.
    Wasn't sniping at you. so don't take it that way. The Dee comment was a general observation.

    Aye, it must be hard going not seeing fish over all those trips. I've had 5 days on the North Esk so far and only not seen fish on one of the days. I guess our crowd have been lucky in that respect!
    ..........so many flies, so little time!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by westie4566 View Post
    Wasn't sniping at you. so don't take it that way. The Dee comment was a general observation.

    Aye, it must be hard going not seeing fish over all those trips. I've had 5 days on the North Esk so far and only not seen fish on one of the days. I guess our crowd have been lucky in that respect!
    In view of this gloom I'm not sure I dare tell you how many fish were caught on the Ure over the opening weekend 6/7 April.......

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    In view of this gloom I'm not sure I dare tell you how many fish were caught on the Ure over the opening weekend 6/7 April.......
    ......oh, go on! You know you want to.
    ..........so many flies, so little time!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by westie4566 View Post
    Wasn't sniping at you. so don't take it that way. The Dee comment was a general observation.
    With the greatest respect, what other way is there to take it?
    Out of the blue you start lamenting about folk moaning about the Dee board. I can't think of a single post on here in recent years.
    Quite the reverse in fact. As far as I can see, they have to be commended for the work they do in easing barriers, opening new spawning and nursery areas tree planting, coppice work and everything that is going on up there.
    The only negative posts you will see is from the hatchery minded anglers who want to see investment in that once again and although I respect their views, I believe they are misinformed.
    If you go way back, to the time of the extension into October, that is when they took criticism, big time. I still consider they made the worst decision of their existence implementing that and that it was only for commercial gain as in my view, it was hugely detrimental to the general health and well being of gravid salmon.
    Anyway, let that be the last word on a subject that did not need to be raised at all.
    Respect My Authorita!!

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    Mandatory C&R for Tweed fish up to 30th June appears to be the policy objective.
    Bearing in mind that C&R is a ditterent factor for many anglers, wouldn't it better from the fishery managment 's point of view to 'produce' report that proves otherwise?
    Last edited by pol_angler; 12-04-2019 at 04:23 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pol_angler View Post
    Bearing in mind that C&R is a ditterent factor for many anglers, wouldn't it better from the fishery managment 's point of view to 'produce' report that proves otherwise?
    Yes indeed: you would have thought so 😀

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by keirstream View Post
    Well, I've fished Teith & Earn weekly, North Esk for 4 days, Tummel, Spey on Carron, Upper Arndilly and Tulchan and I've yet to see a splash. When you fish beats day after day with 3 or 4 good fishers either side of you and nobody gets a pull that tells you there's just nothing there and you need to pull a huge stroke of good luck to get into a fish these days.
    But, anyway, where did I anywhere in my post criticize the Dee board? Sure, I never was a fan of their "voluntary" 100% C & R code but you will never hear or see me anywhere knocking their activities. Why should I? I have the Forth board on my doorstep to have a go at if I want to. Full time job that would be.
    No, I'm surprised you hauled that one out of the hat for a wee bit of sniping practice.
    I've had 4 day's on the northie this season and one of my other rod's ( and he's certainly a good fisher and usually has a good few under his belt by now ) has had more than double the day's for nowt , I've only managed one of last years models.. Very poor
    We're not seeing fish as their simply not there at least in any number's, in years gone by I've seen more fish when setting up the rod's, I could count on one hand the amount of fresh fish we've seen this season only last year's models... although there my have been a very odd pod of fish gone through the runs just aren't there
    One of our rod's has already decided to give up his day's for next season

    I'm back up in a cpl a week's I'm hoping something has arrived by then, until then I'm off the the Clyde to chase the brownies and get a bend in a rod 🎣
    Last edited by Lamson v10; 12-04-2019 at 05:56 PM.

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