Thanks Thanks:  6
Likes Likes:  53
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 44

Thread: Spring Fish

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Aberdeen
    Posts
    6,687

    Default

    There's also the case of a grilse that was caught on the Connon/Carron - can't recall which river. It was tagged and subsequently recaught the following year as a springer.
    ..........so many flies, so little time!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Leipzig/Germany
    Posts
    549

    Default

    Maybe it differs also from river to river. On the Gaula for example the late May and early June fish - which are the spring fish there - are the big ones which breed mostly with the big ones.
    But there are always some cock grilse which participate also on the spawning business.
    Its nearly the same on some south norwegian
    rivers and on some danish ones.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    North Yorks
    Posts
    3,719

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pol_angler View Post
    Characteristics = imprinted genes?


    The whole report strongly points towards Spring gene pool. Items 3, 6-7-8, 13 in the Summary could not be more clearer about that.
    Pol Angler,

    at the outset I must stress the high regard that I have for the Tweed Board's scientific team and the work they do. Nothing that follows is personal, just observations on the quality of the evidence underpinning this report. In my opinion this document isn't up to their usual standard.

    I do reiterate my view that this report has been produced to support a single point of view towards securing a preferred policy. I'm not a fishery scientist (just an economist who spent several years as the research director of a large organisation), but it would not last long in the face of peer review, especially if statisticians and mathematicians got in on the process. The interpretation of the available evidence is presented in entirely one direction and the alternative is not exposed, examined and where appropriate, eliminated.

    The evidence base is limited to:
    - A radio tracking project spanning 3 years that took place 25 years ago, involving a mere 123 fish (from an aggregated 3 year run total measured in hundreds of thousands): the sample size is microscopic and the potential for sampling errors proportionately large. On the latter point compare and contrast the figures for the unobstructed Ettrick and constrained Whiteadder (p 13).The time that has elapsed since the 1990s study equates to more than half the length of the population cycle posited elsewhere in the paper, yet there is no attempt to square this inconvenience or consider its impact on the quality of the data.
    - A scale reading project that for the past 20 years has averaged fewer than 120 fish, and in the last 6 years' readings, fewer than 30. The sample is a microscopic proportion of the total and therefore liable to severe sampling errors. Moreover, no consideration is given to the factors that may lie behind the increase in S1 content in the more recent results and its consequences for subsequent fish size and run timing.
    - The Selkirk fish counter data series ended 10 years ago, and the average age of the readings is 15 years.

    There is also a lack of consideration of environmental factors and their potential impact on results and behaviour.

    If we wish to claim a specific unique gene set for spring salmon then there's only one way to do it, and that's by empirical testing of a decent sized sample over an extended period. At least the science involved is getting cheaper by the year.

    All else is conjecture. If I'm presented with solid evidence I will change my mind, but there's nothing in this report that adds up to scientific proof of the hypothesis of separation.
    Last edited by MCXFisher; 11-04-2019 at 07:37 PM.

  4. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post

    I do reiterate my view that this report has been produced to support a single point of view towards securing a preferred policy.
    What's the preferred policy?

    Some valid points.
    Last edited by pol_angler; 11-04-2019 at 06:49 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    North Yorks
    Posts
    3,719

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pol_angler View Post
    What's the preferred policy?

    Some valid points.
    Mandatory C&R for Tweed fish up to 30th June appears to be the policy objective.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Bonar Bridge
    Posts
    227

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxie View Post
    I suspect run timing is determined by an array of factors, in the fish, the river and the sea. On one river I fish the Ghillie is convinced that most spring run hens breed with male grilse and he is in an excellent position to know! The fact that the vast majority or 2SW springers are hens, or they are wherever I fish, indicates it is unlikely they breed exclusively with each other. Common sense would suggest that a fish running in May is unlikely to seek out other May runners to breed with and turn her nose up at a June or September run fish.



    Obviously is springers breed springers then grilse breed grilse and Autumn fish breed Autumn fish. This is not a theory that holds much water! I think fishery management has bought in to this idea so heavily they are unwilling to face the reality that they were wrong all along.
    Could it be that the earliest running grilse i.e. those running in May and June are largely destined for the upper reaches of some catchments and will spawn with early running MSWs? Could these grilse have the same genes apparently associated with run-timing as the MSWs? What about the precocious male parr?
    You do not need to have a PhD to be a bad salmon fisherman but it helps.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Mid Wales
    Posts
    283

    Default

    Some scientists would have it that the fish do choose a specific mate that suits their own genetics, it is a point often thrown under the wheels of hatchery possibilities. Also no one has covered the intervention of the precocious male parr, how will we tell if they are spring, summer or autumn fish?
    I agree the Tweed scientists do seem to be somewhat at odds with other thinking and their use of the term - characteristics is pretty vague, do the maybe mean memes (originally by Dawkins rather than Internet)?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Aberdeen
    Posts
    6,687

    Default

    The bottom line is, bad science used to keep fish from being kept until some random, yet mandatory date.

    Spring fish begetting spring fish is just *******s and all the proof is out there.

    Yup, we do have high up burns beloved of springers....but also beloved of late running fish.

    The sad reality is that those springers we lovingly return are probably the least likely to spawn, even more so the much coveted 'licer'. The stress they are going through at that period of adjusting to fresh water added to being caught is possibly a death sentence.

    Later fish are far more robust and nature abhors a vacuum -so they will seek out the best spawning areas. We already have the evidence from tagging that fish run up and down rivers and spawning burns until they decide where they want to be.
    ..........so many flies, so little time!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Stirling
    Posts
    5,911

    Default

    This old chestnut again.
    We all know the answer without trolling over old ground ad nauseum. It has been debated here only a month ago and god knows how often before.
    Bottom line is, of course, that most (I think) anglers are aware that mandatory, or indeed voluntary C & R has made absolutely no difference to spring, summer or autumn run populations.
    Evidenced by the fact that you have to firstly catch a fish to return it and I ain't even seen a splash this season so far.
    Yet you would expect rivers to be teeming after all the years of "conservation"
    The Dee is on it's ar*e this spring once again, so who really cares if the springer that you might by some miraculous stroke of luck, catch, has an early to bed mother and a very late father appearing 7 or 8 months later? Or vice versa?
    Or 2 young lovers heading up river in March fin in fin?
    I just want to catch one at the moment.
    Respect My Authorita!!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Aberdeen
    Posts
    6,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keirstream View Post
    This old chestnut again.
    We all know the answer without trolling over old ground ad nauseum. It has been debated here only a month ago and god knows how often before.
    Bottom line is, of course, that most (I think) anglers are aware that mandatory, or indeed voluntary C & R has made absolutely no difference to spring, summer or autumn run populations.
    Evidenced by the fact that you have to firstly catch a fish to return it and I ain't even seen a splash this season so far.
    Yet you would expect rivers to be teeming after all the years of "conservation"
    The Dee is on it's ar*e this spring once again, so who really cares if the springer that you might by some miraculous stroke of luck, catch, has an early to bed mother and a very late father appearing 7 or 8 months later? Or vice versa?
    Or 2 young lovers heading up river in March fin in fin?
    I just want to catch one at the moment.
    Ok-I'm not quite in your position Tam having seen fish on Spey, Don and North Esk and have successfully landed one and lost another.

    However, it doesn't get away from the fact that things are grim all over.

    Fair play to the Dee Board for getting hands on in their approach to problems though. Latest is 'planting' deer legs in the Muick to compensate for the lack of dead kelts and try to add nutrients back into this stream to boost insect life and feed for juveniles.

    The Dee always seems to get hauled up for scrutiny...dunno why as from what I see they're the one Board in Scotland who are out busting their asses trying to actually turn the tide.0
    ..........so many flies, so little time!

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •