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  1. #1
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    Default Salmon Migration.

    Just an odd musing, but reading Taddys Wear post about Salar smelling the river makes me wonder.
    We are bemoaning the lack of Salmon,they to all intents and purposes are just disappearing from our rivers and we all have our favourite culprits to blame.
    I'm wondering are we the human influence responsible for altering the smell of our rivers to the extent that Salar no longer recognises them?.
    Farming treatments, acid rain run off, water treatment plants, road wash, various chemicals that pass through the human system into the water treatment plants and then into the river.Now for one moment you can't tell me that this isn't a problem.
    Also just maybe it seems to me that the only rivers on their uppers are those that have re emerged from the ashes phoenix wise from Salmon wastelands to rapidly improving rivers and just maybe their genetic stock are recognising their homeland rivers from a different smell to what the original stock of fish ever did and more to the point are used to this ever changing smell?.Just maybe those rivers with an on going native stock fish have changed smell wise to such an extent that Salar is plain and simply not able to recognise where it should be going?.
    Sat the other day thinking about this and in particular my club stretch of the Ribble which has 3 water treatment plants along the length.I remember the effect the pill had when washed through the treatment plants into the river Trent altering the sex of the Roach thus decimating the population very very quickly!.Allthough the discharge looks clear, god knows whats actually in the water!
    I don't for one moment think there's just one factor solely responsible for the plight of Salar,rather than a combination of things.
    Bah eck,this thinking lark, makes you wonder !
    Pedro.

  2. #2
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    Default smells

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennie View Post
    Just an odd musing, but reading Taddys Wear post about Salar smelling the river makes me wonder.
    We are bemoaning the lack of Salmon,they to all intents and purposes are just disappearing from our rivers and we all have our favourite culprits to blame.
    I'm wondering are we the human influence responsible for altering the smell of our rivers to the extent that Salar no longer recognises them?.
    Farming treatments, acid rain run off, water treatment plants, road wash, various chemicals that pass through the human system into the water treatment plants and then into the river.Now for one moment you can't tell me that this isn't a problem.
    Also just maybe it seems to me that the only rivers on their uppers are those that have re emerged from the ashes phoenix wise from Salmon wastelands to rapidly improving rivers and just maybe their genetic stock are recognising their homeland rivers from a different smell to what the original stock of fish ever did and more to the point are used to this ever changing smell?.Just maybe those rivers with an on going native stock fish have changed smell wise to such an extent that Salar is plain and simply not able to recognise where it should be going?.
    Sat the other day thinking about this and in particular my club stretch of the Ribble which has 3 water treatment plants along the length.I remember the effect the pill had when washed through the treatment plants into the river Trent altering the sex of the Roach thus decimating the population very very quickly!.Allthough the discharge looks clear, god knows whats actually in the water!
    I don't for one moment think there's just one factor solely responsible for the plight of Salar,rather than a combination of things.
    Bah eck,this thinking lark, makes you wonder !
    Pedro.
    What i mean by smell is the smells that come with rain water...not thee actual natural smell of the low river,though when its droughty like this and the weed is drying out you can smell and detect where the flood smells comes from as that same dry weed has a background smell like flood water-wet times.
    We here Rennie ar ok as salmon aint dissapearing,The Tyne,Wear both do well and are the top two by far in england and wales,then we have the ouse say mo more look how well its doing also the trent is coming on strong and so too are the many tribs? give me your estimation what you think passes the humber based on the two main rivers ie trent and ouse and both rivers also have a boat load of rivers flowing to them and so on.

    As for the Tees well lol ide rather not try and argue my points on the matter but trust me it gets a lot more fish than people imagine its just we never ever get a report from anywhere below broken scar (darlington) before say july and even after that they reports are always thin on the ground-maybe down to anglers not filling in rod returns which has been suggested only a week a go in the Tees thread.The Yorks esk is still a cracking river being what 24 miles long and a mere stream at low tide between Whitby and Ruswarp (tidal limit) which is about 2-3 miles from the sea.
    Coquet not my river never has been same goes for the Aln so im not speaking about them two.
    So really in the north east salmon are on the up the counts suggest that and the recovery of both Trent nd Ouse speak volumes.
    The smell,i know a place where this smell is permanantly acaster malbis on the tidal ouse,stand near the edge of the fash pass in the weir pool where the railings come to the waters edge and thats the smell im onabout,but we only get is on the wear during or after a flood when the ground is wet and debris has moved with the rain.

    Plus as i have said many times if old dirty polluted rivers can make a come back all on their todd why is it that pristene rivers are loosing fish? it sort of dont make sense as we know that salmon like clean oxygenated waters,dirty rivers fall out of the catagory yet they still sllowly making comebacks to salmon populations ie trent and ouse,even the mersey and rhine in europe france and switzerland...so whats wrong then with our historically clean rivers or perhaps we dont know it all about salmon and since the re newal of dirty river becoming cleaner is it poss that the populations of salmon now have more choice so the fish are becoming divided from running the rivers of origin or they could be dispersing to re populate now these rivers are cleaner,we know they have a dna sat nav that allows them to guide them selves to other river systems if need be.

    So what a few rivers may have lost in stock these fish could be populating old dirty rivers that are now getting cleaner,so look at the humber and estimate your own personally number what you think is running the humber to then share between all trent and ouse rivers and lets face it they a hell of a lot of them.My number is this;some where near 100k as the ure alone gets a decent run and not all of their fish are counted so add another 5-10k fish to that count.then the swale,wahrfe,nidd,don,derwent,rye you name it each and every single syste is getting fish,so what is the yearly run for england? what was the counts of the run say 20 years ago then 10 years ago and now...if that humber is getting them fish then 100k fish added onto the rievrs that are missing say 5 k per year or even 10k per year,well my estimation of 100k humber fish may cover some of those rivers,but its not just the humber,other river which aint had salmon for god knows how long are starting to make a very sllow recovery ie wensum of all rivers.mersey another and the goyt !

    forgot about infeections to the river wow the Pill !!! also these days drugs dirty needles etc all that aint helping,all our barebl have grown massive over the past few years could that be protein baits hallibut pellets ellips etc as im sure these fish farming foods have some sort of growth hormone in them-cpuld would that effect the fish?> salmon our fish
    Last edited by Taddy; 28-07-2018 at 12:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default

    There's a full explanation of those factors in "The Importance of Smell".

    Amongst them I would highlight the fact that the salmon's sense of smell is not prone to 'jamming' as each 'smell' is a discrete quasi-digital item that can be discerned from others.

    The salon's other navigational means will bring it to the area of the estuary (see Annual Miracle). The sense of smell does little in the sea, but comes into play in deciding when to run a river, and at every stage of the final leg of its journey.

  4. #4
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    Default Smell

    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    There's a full explanation of those factors in "The Importance of Smell".

    Amongst them I would highlight the fact that the salmon's sense of smell is not prone to 'jamming' as each 'smell' is a discrete quasi-digital item that can be discerned from others.

    The salon's other navigational means will bring it to the area of the estuary (see Annual Miracle). The sense of smell does little in the sea, but comes into play in deciding when to run a river, and at every stage of the final leg of its journey.
    Superb read MCXFISHER,but i think rennie seems to have read what i mean as wrong,i actually mean when we have extra water in the rivers,we get that damp smell,mud,leaves,debris etc i didnt mean the rivers Au Natural smells like the ones in low water though i seem to think that the smells im talking about are locked away waiting to be released and flood water does just that.
    My long gone mate Tommy used to fone me when the river wear came up and say its perfect and then in the next breath he used to say and its got the smell so we should be in with some good catches and when it did smell like he said it did we used to have some exceptional catches well everyone did and still does.
    Last edited by Taddy; 28-07-2018 at 12:29 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Probs

    Not so sure about this one. The corollary would seem to the that chemical reactions would cease. Plus there an awful lot of wandering by salmonids before they home in and I'm not a great fan of the integrity of that theory or we would have few salmon rivers IMO.

    Before your Sat Nav, you drove south and knew to turn right for Manchester somewhere past Ferrybridge C's cooling towers. I have no doubt salmonids have similar methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    There's a full explanation of those factors in "The Importance of Smell".

    Amongst them I would highlight the fact that the salmon's sense of smell is not prone to 'jamming' as each 'smell' is a discrete quasi-digital item that can be discerned from others.

    The salon's other navigational means will bring it to the area of the estuary (see Annual Miracle). The sense of smell does little in the sea, but comes into play in deciding when to run a river, and at every stage of the final leg of its journey.

  6. #6
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    Dave,

    there's certainly far more straying than the traditionalists would generally accept. The first scientific netting of the Mersey about 5-6 years ago yielded salmon with genetic markers from a variety of Scottish rivers, the Tyne and elsewhere. Wider occasional occurrence data, not properly assembled or screened, suggests that the Tyne salmon travel widely. Moreover, hatchery fish tend to be poor navigators. But in general nature abhors a vacuum, which in part explains the speed of recovery of the Ouse system.

    In addition, once a salmon arrives in the vicinity of the estuary and finds the river unready to run, it is likely to wander over quite a wide area. In salt water unhindered by obstacles it can cruise at 3+mph almost continuously and cover an immense space within 48 hours. In eastern and north eastern Scotland the line of return approach is heavily influenced by the unique pattern of tidal flows, which leads to a lot of long shore travel. For example, a fish heading for the Deveron will pass the outflows of more than a dozen other salmon rivers from the time of its first landfall.

    In that regard the Ouse system is a very interesting case, as its own estuary is some 50 miles from the open North Sea, and approached up the Humber, the exit for 2 of England's largest river catchments. Together they amount to some 25 individual rivers that either currently have or within the past 10 years have had salmon populations. Even when the salmon reaches Goole it's still got 6 viable salmon rivers from which to choose.

    Then we have the open question of what happens when a salmon finds its natal river is unfit to run but another is inviting. Owing to the wide dispersion of salmon in the sea and the difficulty of sound sampling there has been no research whatsoever of this subject. It therefore remains a hypothetical but viable scenario that could contribute to the straying numbers.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Maybe the salmon population booms in the dirty rivers are possible because many rivers in the north take water from keilder like the tees,wear and Ouse ... the fish smell there home river and mistakingly swim another??
    I can imagine these rivers donít have a shield of nets around them like tynemouth so migration up them is easier any how.

  8. #8
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    Default water

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattytree View Post
    Maybe the salmon population booms in the dirty rivers are possible because many rivers in the north take water from keilder like the tees,wear and Ouse ... the fish smell there home river and mistakingly swim another??
    I can imagine these rivers donít have a shield of nets around them like tynemouth so migration up them is easier any how.
    The Tees i think is fed by either cow greenor hury rezzy i think and the wear has i think burnhope that one before cowhill water fall weardale,yes they can be fed by keilder but they raely are only the Tyne getting keilder water.The wear was up and running well before the Tyne and i dont think has ever been effected like the other north east rivers as far as pollution is concerned,once it was most likely thee best st river in england and wales by far for catches and speciman fishes,now its more geared towards salmon as being number 1,as now we catch more salmon through out the full season than we used to..ive gone 2-3 years with out catching salmon from the wear (circa 1980s) but in them years have caught a few hundred st ! now is a diff story and it has nowt ta do with water from keilder more to do with a boost on the stoking side of things hence why we nearly lost all natural wear fish.

    Our fish were once long torpedo type fish now they deeper similar to tyne fish or tees fish,but very different to Ouse and Ure fish in appearence and shape.

    Also when i used to fish the tidal Yorks esk some of the old timers used to say that their area down to the humber was a playground area never ever quite got what that actually meant in scientific terms but what the lads used to say was that this area was similar to a airport lounge if ya like so the fish waiting could be destined for anywhere as some of the fish were huge by any rivers standard at that time era.So now and then fish past the 40lb mark would be caught and lost but on a river that is 28 miles long and may have as little as 20+ miles of fishing in waters that are shallow enough to walk across at low water and then once ppast ruswarp the river again thins out and it can be jumped across in a lot of places.and yet these big fish have rarely been seen up river as they were always caught down in the tidal ....so make of that what ya will
    Last edited by Taddy; 28-07-2018 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #9
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    Many rivers to cross | The Independent
    Gave an insight in too how the many of the rivers could carry tyne head water scent from keilder once I read it... I have no idea how much or if at all ,but maybe that could be a the reason the wear salmon are changing and not just stocking? .
    I was under the impression that stocking was done with brood stock From the same river... I know not from the past but Iím pretty sure any done now is.
    Thing is we donít really know what we have done to our rivers , taking tweed fish to stock the tyne could of altered a lot more than we know... itís been said that Peter grey could not get the stock from the tyne but I know of a local who will swear blind there burns above keilder had started to recover years before they had finished the dam and opened the hatchery to the point that if the used a ford to feed live stock in Oct/dec they would run over fish!

  10. #10
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    Default Deveron

    Interesting, I guess for some time at the start of the HOLLOW SCENE ( see Taddy there is something hollow after all ), salmonids' most northerly natal river was the Rhine until about the time the UK became ice free. I guess some of our southerly and south-western rivers were first to defrost ( or were ice-free ) and would receive wanderers from France, Portugal and Spain.

    I didn't know about the Deveron - is there a paper on that please ?

    I get asked about the lack of increased rod catches when most of the Scottish shore nets were taken off ( plus some of our NE Nets after 2004 ) . I can only think of two logical reasons: the foreshore nets' catches in a particular fishery area were not bound for natal rivers in that same area; or we have a complete collapse in salmon stocks.

    I suppose we could have a combination of the two scenarios - any ideas ?


    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    Dave,

    there's certainly far more straying than the traditionalists would generally accept. The first scientific netting of the Mersey about 5-6 years ago yielded salmon with genetic markers from a variety of Scottish rivers, the Tyne and elsewhere. Wider occasional occurrence data, not properly assembled or screened, suggests that the Tyne salmon travel widely. Moreover, hatchery fish tend to be poor navigators. But in general nature abhors a vacuum, which in part explains the speed of recovery of the Ouse system.

    In addition, once a salmon arrives in the vicinity of the estuary and finds the river unready to run, it is likely to wander over quite a wide area. In salt water unhindered by obstacles it can cruise at 3+mph almost continuously and cover an immense space within 48 hours. In eastern and north eastern Scotland the line of return approach is heavily influenced by the unique pattern of tidal flows, which leads to a lot of long shore travel. For example, a fish heading for the Deveron will pass the outflows of more than a dozen other salmon rivers from the time of its first landfall.

    In that regard the Ouse system is a very interesting case, as its own estuary is some 50 miles from the open North Sea, and approached up the Humber, the exit for 2 of England's largest river catchments. Together they amount to some 25 individual rivers that either currently have or within the past 10 years have had salmon populations. Even when the salmon reaches Goole it's still got 6 viable salmon rivers from which to choose.

    Then we have the open question of what happens when a salmon finds its natal river is unfit to run but another is inviting. Owing to the wide dispersion of salmon in the sea and the difficulty of sound sampling there has been no research whatsoever of this subject. It therefore remains a hypothetical but viable scenario that could contribute to the straying numbers.
    Last edited by Dave Wilkinson; 28-07-2018 at 06:04 PM.

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