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  1. #21

    Default scary maths

    If we assume that a river has 100 febs some have many many more some have less eating 10 fish each per day =1000x365=365,000 per year,and this does not take into account the winter visitors from Scandinavia. If only 1% of these fish were to survive to return as adults that would be 3650 more fish in the river bearing in mind that without these birds the number of survivors would increase.
    The government/agencies in Scotland catagorize the exploitation of a river according to their interpretation of sustainability i.e a cat 3 river is -60% of sustainability (which most anglers will adhere to) so surly the effect of predation should also be a factor when they decide on the cats and rivers in cats 2&3 should be allowed to deal with it effectively instead of permission to shoot piddely numbers that would make no difference to the health of the fish stocks. It is time for the anglers to fight back and get some real action from the river management and the government/agencies that make the decisions.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Stirling
    Posts
    276

    Default

    I sent an email to the AST today highlighting avian predation and saying it ain’t all lost at sea. Sorting our own country’s in river problems with avians is very easily achieved if SG is shown and given facts by the Boards and trusts and is actually willing then SG just issue a statement saying these birds are having a devastating effect on returning salmon numbers and killing juvenile fish so they will be culled back to a reasonable number as jobs and tourism in salmon fishing towns is decreasing due to poor salmon runs. Will SG help the salmon ? I doubt it .

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    stirling
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    518

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Single Hander View Post
    The association of salmon fishery boards in Scotland need to take up this fight and campaign aggressively regarding lost jobs and lost revenue income to rural communities. Numerous small towns throughout Scotland have families who depend on visiting salmon anglers money. Does having ever increasing numbers of avian predators on salmon rivers support full time jobs ? No .. Salmon rivers should be protected and birds culled end off !

    Scottish government in my opinion sees salmon angling as a sport for toffs and Healthy salmon rivers is low on their agenda.

    My local rivers the Forth and Teith are now a shadow of themselves and avians seem to be in every stretch all year round , absolutely heartbreaking fishing on this system now, hardly any parr seen at your feet now and balmy summer evenings spent watching parr in their hundreds taking flies is now a distant memory, very frustrating.

    Due to the way the fishery boards govern in Scotland results in them having to take up the fight as they are seen as the “protectors and enhancers” of salmon fisheries in our country and they represent the riparian owners.

    Could the fishery boards not organise a national petition requesting a cull and have each fishery board obtain signatures from hotels,ghillies,local shops,anglers,fishing shops and the Major angling manufacturers like hardys,SImms,loop,sage. I know I am buying less tackle and fishing less due to the poor runs and impacts avians are having on our rivers..

    Lots of people being affected in different ways with poor runs of salmon. I am sure we could have decent numbers of signatures and get this in the spotlight without too much trouble.

    RSPB were quick and quite right in applying for kill licences when hedgehogs started appearing on Scottish islands and causing nesting bird numbers to plummet, what’s the difference in what we the salmon anglers want which is a cull to protect young salmon numbers ?

    I just feel the organisations who should be fighting these issues and taking it to government level are not doing enough while we watch numerous rivers die and become unfished .

    Regards
    SH
    Not just the avian predators on the Forth and Teith.... Sammy is doing a fair bit of damage to the returning kelts and there are no longer any resident fish on the lower beats.
    I remember seeing a new born cub on the gravel at the Blue Banks a couple of years ago cormorant damage cormorant damage

    Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Leipzig/Germany
    Posts
    61

    Default Cormorants

    It's quite simple . You should kill These terrible black biests !

  5. #25

    Default

    Just throwing this out there for discussion....
    Is our message really "let's kill lots of birds so we can kill more salmon".
    Now I'm no marketing expert but that's a difficult sell, especially when Atlantic salmon conservation status is "least concern".
    RSPB do a great job protecting bird species. I really think there are things we can learn from them and, for sure, working against the interests of such powerful lobbyists with such a weak argument is not going to end in success.

    So what do we do about the FEB problem?

    Now I'm also no expert on protecting young salmon from FEBs but naturalisation of rivers has been demonstrated to improve things for young salmon. Where fish have cover from fallen trees, overhanging/trailing vegetation, reduced canalisation etc. it is shown they can avoid the attentions of FEBs.

    A question for all.... Would you give up good access to your local salmon rivers in return for reduced predation of young salmon? If not, why not?

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    shropshire
    Posts
    85

    Default Cormorant Damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Single Hander View Post
    I sent an email to the AST today highlighting avian predation and saying it ain’t all lost at sea. Sorting our own country’s in river problems with avians is very easily achieved if SG is shown and given facts by the Boards and trusts and is actually willing then SG just issue a statement saying these birds are having a devastating effect on returning salmon numbers and killing juvenile fish so they will be culled back to a reasonable number as jobs and tourism in salmon fishing towns is decreasing due to poor salmon runs. Will SG help the salmon ? I doubt it .
    No one will be surprised to hear that we have the same problem with Cormorants, Mergansers and Goosanders predating Sea Trout juveniles in Mid Wales - their numbers seem to increase year on year in spite the annual culling license.
    I have noticed that they have become less frightened of humans - must be safety in numbers.
    As we all know it would be so easy to deal with them given the appropriate license from the authorities - more letter writing to the Welsh Assembly is needed.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Stirling
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    276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye View Post
    Just throwing this out there for discussion....
    Is our message really "let's kill lots of birds so we can kill more salmon".
    Now I'm no marketing expert but that's a difficult sell, especially when Atlantic salmon conservation status is "least concern".
    RSPB do a great job protecting bird species. I really think there are things we can learn from them and, for sure, working against the interests of such powerful lobbyists with such a weak argument is not going to end in success.

    So what do we do about the FEB problem?


    Now I'm also no expert on protecting young salmon from FEBs but naturalisation of rivers has been demonstrated to improve things for young salmon. Where fish have cover from fallen trees, overhanging/trailing vegetation, reduced canalisation etc. it is shown they can avoid the attentions of FEBs.

    A question for all.... Would you give up good access to your local salmon rivers in return for reduced predation of young salmon? If not, why not?
    SG keep banging the drum about jobs in rural communities and promoting the salmon farms as this. Salmon rivers if healthy have lots of people who are employed as a result of visiting anglers ie ghillies,bailiffs,hotel staff,hotel suppliers,local shops and restaurants. What happens to them when numbers of salmon returning collapse ?

    I appreciate the RSPB are a well organised outfit but what do we do just sit on our hands and watch the rivers die as that is what I am seeing on my own system..

    A salmon river should be managed as a Salmon river and if this involves culling FEB’s then so be it in my opinion. I am not talking about making these birds extinct just controlling the numbers like what was done in years gone bye..

    Regarding letting rivers go back to natural state , this may help the young fish escape FEBs but who wants to fish a section of river with trees and stumps lying in the middle of pools ? If it is a salmon beat and permits sold as such then pools should be free from fallen trees and pools however i would agree certain areas could have trees and weeds left for protecting young fish.

    Surely there is enough organisations already on the go who can push on with these issues. Talk to any old Ghillie or Fisher and they will tell you there was never any FEBs in the numbers we are seeing now on the rivers..Old ghillies and keepers never shot these birds just for the craic they shot them and kept their numbers pegged back as they knew what a devastating effect they have on the young parr..

    Salmon rivers should be protected and managed as such in my opinion.

    SH

  8. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye View Post
    Just throwing this out there for discussion....
    Is our message really "let's kill lots of birds so we can kill more salmon".
    Now I'm no marketing expert but that's a difficult sell, especially when Atlantic salmon conservation status is "least concern".
    RSPB do a great job protecting bird species. I really think there are things we can learn from them and, for sure, working against the interests of such powerful lobbyists with such a weak argument is not going to end in success.

    So what do we do about the FEB problem?

    Now I'm also no expert on protecting young salmon from FEBs but naturalisation of rivers has been demonstrated to improve things for young salmon. Where fish have cover from fallen trees, overhanging/trailing vegetation, reduced canalisation etc. it is shown they can avoid the attentions of FEBs.

    A question for all.... Would you give up good access to your local salmon rivers in return for reduced predation of young salmon? If not, why not?
    In my view the nursery and spawning areas should be largely sanctuaries anyway, this is certainly the case on the Fowey. The river can be left as nature intended AND we can have good access downstream in good fishing areas.

    The idea of culling is never popular. What we need is simelar to a farmers right to shoot pests damaging their livestock. I.e. individual problem animals or birds not a wholesale slaughter. A rogue dog savaging sheep can be killed, sadly, but not every dog a farmer sees.

    We use shooting to kill cormorants as part of a wider program to keep them away from vulnerable areas and in vulnerable periods like the smolt Run. They quickly learn we are no real threat unless you kill one every now and then "pour encourager les autres". There is no way there will ever be a legal cull of FEB's but limited licences could be more widely available.

  9. #29

    Default

    Just as a matter of interest here are some figures issued by the rspb

    Goosander UK breeding 3100-3800 pairs winter visitors 12,000 birds. (green status)
    Red breasted merganser UK breeding 2800 pairs winter visitors 9000 birds. (green status)
    Cormorant UK breeding 9018 pairs winter visitors 41,000 birds (green status.
    The rspb have three coloured population statuses green meaning the population is healthy and thriving, I wonder what status they would give to Atlantic Salmon and Seatrout.
    I think they need a recount on goosanders and mergansers.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Stirling
    Posts
    276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SOS View Post
    Just as a matter of interest here are some figures issued by the rspb

    Goosander UK breeding 3100-3800 pairs winter visitors 12,000 birds. (green status)
    Red breasted merganser UK breeding 2800 pairs winter visitors 9000 birds. (green status)
    Cormorant UK breeding 9018 pairs winter visitors 41,000 birds (green status.
    The rspb have three coloured population statuses green meaning the population is healthy and thriving, I wonder what status they would give to Atlantic Salmon and Seatrout.
    I think they need a recount on goosanders and mergansers.
    Salmon anglers have changed attitudes and practices and now C&R stats on most rivers are high, If you think about the fishery boards and their duties “ protecting and enhancing salmon and sea trout stocks” then it is all about trying to get as many smolts to sea ? All the catch and release being done in my eyes is almost pointless as these birds will populate rivers and stay there all year , the more parr and smolts produced then the more FEBs become resident and you are left with the same minimal output of smolts to sea each year. Apply for licenses to kill FEBs and keep their numbers to a minimum and then you are sending a greater number of smolts to sea. After the amazing run in 2010 our system the Forth and Teith has not shown any signs that the young parr from this spawning year 2010 have made it back in any decent numbers. What I have noticed since this year 2010 is an increase in FEBs so was this great run of salmon of 2010 mearly benefitting the birds with more food stock and allowing more FEBs to become resident on the system in greater densities ??

    For the record I am not promoting 100 C&R in any way and I feel we the anglers are always getting the finger pointed at us for keeping fish and having restrictions placed on us which portray we are causing the declines in salmon runs.

    These FEBs are without doubt amazing and efficient at catching fish but surely all can see that their numbers have increased dramatically over the years..

    SH

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