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  1. #21
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    Feb 2008
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    Northallerton
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    With the exception of jewellery I don't know of any chain that doesn't use a pulley.

    Anyway, there is neither chains nor pulleys in reality I just visualise it easier the way I explained it.

  2. #22
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    Mar 2013
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    North Yorks
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    Minitube,

    as I recall, the 'dynamic loading' issue was the point at which you and Springer came to stalemate the last time this question was debated. On that occasion I was merely lurking in the margins to try to explain the maths, with a similar lack of success. Below I shall try to explain the physical limits of 'dynamic loading' as a concept.

    In the interests of simplicity, at this stage I'd like to park water-borne casts for the time being. And for clarity, I underline the fact that units like force, momentum, acceleration and speed are vectors, in that they comprise both scale and direction.

    The loading of the rod during the cast cycle changes in both scale and direction. Thus in the back sweep the rod is loaded and bends towards the rings, whereas in the forward cast, the loading and bend is 180 degrees different, away from the rings. The rod is only loaded and bends when the angler is applying force to accelerate the line. This applies during the back sweep when the angler is accelerating the entire mass of the line; and of course in the forward cast where the angler is accelerating part of the mass. In the transition between back sweep and forward cast, the line moving backwards whilst forming the D loop has some momentum (clearly much less in a Single Spey than an Overhead cast) that the angler counteracts with a small force, thereby creating a limited degree of loading. This loading is, however, much smaller than that created during the back sweep and forward cycles, because at that point the line itself is decelerating.

    It is not possible to keep the rod fully loaded whilst undergoing a 180 degree change of direction because the force is a vector and therefore related to a specific direction. Forward force and backward force aren't interchangeable. Once the backward force has done its job of accelerating the line into position, the rod unloads briefly into a null position (just as it does in an overhead cast). In the Single Spey this usually occurs during the curved lateral movement of the upper hand from where it finished the back sweep to its required delivery position for the forward cast. The alignment of that movement is broadly at 90 degrees to the direction of the back sweep, which means that there is no loading on the rod in this plane. Without acceleration there's no load, and the line travelling at a steady speed by virtue of its own momentum to form the D loop requires no significant force input by the angler to sustain its condition. The opposite loading does not occur until the forward force is applied to accelerate the line.

    But no matter how dynamic the cast the rod has to pass through a null point in the transition from backward force to forward force: it is impossible to keep it fully loaded throughout the cycle.
    Michael
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  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Dublin
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    ... Once the backward force has done its job of accelerating the line into position, the rod unloads briefly into a null position...But no matter how dynamic the cast the rod has to pass through a null point in the transition from backward force to forward force: it is impossible to keep it fully loaded throughout the cycle.
    Reminds one of the conundrum of the seagull flying directly into the front windscreen of an oncoming train (by directly I mean in exactly the opposite line of travel of the train!). As the seagull thereby changes direction from directly forward to directly backward, it must pass through a null point ie stop, in which case so must the train stop; albeit for a Nano second or something! Ugh...
    H
    PS come to think of it the seagull probably disintegrates! Maybe I should have described two hard items colliding head-on.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Foxford, Co.Mayo, Ireland
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    2,322

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    Minitube,

    as I recall, the 'dynamic loading' issue was the point at which you and Springer came to stalemate the last time this question was debated. On that occasion I was merely lurking in the margins to try to explain the maths, with a similar lack of success. Below I shall try to explain the physical limits of 'dynamic loading' as a concept.

    In the interests of simplicity, at this stage I'd like to park water-borne casts for the time being. And for clarity, I underline the fact that units like force, momentum, acceleration and speed are vectors, in that they comprise both scale and direction.

    The loading of the rod during the cast cycle changes in both scale and direction. Thus in the back sweep the rod is loaded and bends towards the rings, whereas in the forward cast, the loading and bend is 180 degrees different, away from the rings. The rod is only loaded and bends when the angler is applying force to accelerate the line. This applies during the back sweep when the angler is accelerating the entire mass of the line; and of course in the forward cast where the angler is accelerating part of the mass. In the transition between back sweep and forward cast, the line moving backwards whilst forming the D loop has some momentum (clearly much less in a Single Spey than an Overhead cast) that the angler counteracts with a small force, thereby creating a limited degree of loading. This loading is, however, much smaller than that created during the back sweep and forward cycles, because at that point the line itself is decelerating.

    It is not possible to keep the rod fully loaded whilst undergoing a 180 degree change of direction because the force is a vector and therefore related to a specific direction. Forward force and backward force aren't interchangeable. Once the backward force has done its job of accelerating the line into position, the rod unloads briefly into a null position (just as it does in an overhead cast). In the Single Spey this usually occurs during the curved lateral movement of the upper hand from where it finished the back sweep to its required delivery position for the forward cast. The alignment of that movement is broadly at 90 degrees to the direction of the back sweep, which means that there is no loading on the rod in this plane. Without acceleration there's no load, and the line travelling at a steady speed by virtue of its own momentum to form the D loop requires no significant force input by the angler to sustain its condition. The opposite loading does not occur until the forward force is applied to accelerate the line.

    But no matter how dynamic the cast the rod has to pass through a null point in the transition from backward force to forward force: it is impossible to keep it fully loaded throughout the cycle.

    Hi Michael,


    What a straw man argument you've made for yourself there.

    Who ever said or suggested that the rod stays fully loaded with a dynamic or fluid Spey cast? - absolutely no one.

    You're stating some of the most basic things everyone already knows as if I don't know them or suggested otherwise.
    Last edited by minitube; 23-06-2017 at 07:35 PM.
    What is the appropriate behavior for a man or a woman in the midst of this world, where each person is clinging to his piece of debris? What's the proper salutation between people as they pass each other in this flood?
    Buddha

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    North Yorks
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    Quote Originally Posted by minitube View Post
    Hi Michael,


    What a straw man argument you've made for yourself there.

    Who ever said or suggested that the rod stays fully loaded with a dynamic or fluid Spey cast? - absolutely no one.

    You're stating the most basic things everyone already knows as if I don't know them or suggested otherwise.
    In which case I can only apologise for misunderstanding your response to my original post: I'm sorry as it was never my intention to demean.
    Michael
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  6. #26
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    Nov 2007
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    Foxford, Co.Mayo, Ireland
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCXFisher View Post
    In which case I can only apologise for misunderstanding your response to my original post: I'm sorry as it was never my intention to demean.
    No worries Michael. Thanks for that post. I prefer etiquette and consideration for others also, so I hope I did not come across wrongly either.

    Look, it was once said there is more than a bit of water between us (Irish and English outlooks). I actually don't care about the technicalities after a certain point which I'll explain.

    All that matters to me in casting is how my line unrolls, the type of loop it forms for the situation. Is it in plane, the right angle and plane for the situation, the right trajectory, no threat even of a tailing loop or a shepherds crook, no lateral spread, piercing the wind properly. Formed from the type of leverage that I prefer, from the right amount of power and acceleration, the right D or V loop made from spatial awareness. Did I feel the rod counterflex give the line a life of its own, was there economy of effort, control, the right stroke length for the line length and for the distance cast e.t.c. e.t.c. All of these things come from my body, my arms and hands. How I control and use them to direct and manipulate the rod. There is enough there to experiment with and that is almost entirely where it is at for me.

    Some people I meet can improve my casting by making me make miniscule adjustments in body or hand positions, truly minor alterations. Everything is interconnected too. It astounds me at times just how subtle casting control can be.

    My only interest in technicalities is for doing examinations, or teaching people for examinations. Beyond that if the likes of James Chalmers, Michael O'Kane or Martin Kiely say to me - try this, move your hand over here, wait longer there, drift now, start here instead of there e.t.c. it is of the most significance to me. I am astounded at times by the subtlety of it.

    Now when my line moves backwards due to the forward cast, and when I can pull the anchor out on a water borne anchor cast at will, it does not sit with the top leg theory for me personally. I do know it happens because of a taut line. The taut line allows the energy to travel to the fly and anchor, this I know to my satisfaction as I see it happening and can make it happen. Reality is therefore out of step with the theory - or is it perhaps that its the other way around?

    Unless someone allows in the theory for that happening, which I am open to being convinced on, then I will remain unconvinced because it seems an inconsistent fact with the theory. Thats about it. My observation causes me to doubt and indeed reject the contention that the top leg only is loading the rod on the forward cast. I could be wrong but am not convinced by any argument yet, as none allows for the fly to move backwards early from the forward cast power application.
    Last edited by minitube; 23-06-2017 at 08:13 PM.
    What is the appropriate behavior for a man or a woman in the midst of this world, where each person is clinging to his piece of debris? What's the proper salutation between people as they pass each other in this flood?
    Buddha

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